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KWhite

Okay- the first one I see is the mandatory sentencing law. I hate madatory sentencing in any form, for any crime.

That's a plus for Obama.

I grew up in Illinois, a place called Rockford- I will never, ever, forget working as the manager of a fast food joint as two gangs pulled out their pistols at an all night gas station across from the hot dog joint with all the glass we were suddenly forced to take cover in.

I'm not sure a ban is the right way, but man, something has to be done. The restaurant across the street from us, next to the service station, had had five people blwon away in three years.

Give it a neutral, because I can't figure it out either. Living in Germany now, where no weapons are allowed except under the narrowest of usage needs and seeing gun deaths still come up makes me cynical. The amount of gun deaths is an order of magnitude lower, however, than back home if we use population averages.

The right to self defense, that one does hit a sore spot but it isn't enough for me to vote for McCain over him- most of what I see is bitchig about mandatory minimums and I've already said I think those all need to be repealed.

Sorry.

Thanks for posting this, I appreciate it.

Kelly

__________________
"Your mind is your own, your body as well, from the soul we need not speak, tend it well, making those decisions you deem worthy, aware all responsibility is in your hands when the smoke clears" Kelly L. White

"It is a principle of natural justice that when bad men make bad laws, or when unprincipled authorities compromise good ones, citizens are justified in protecting themselves from the very authority that compromised law and order." Gandhi

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troublemaker_42

Ok, while I can understand you disagreeing with me, I don't understand how you got that the jist of the article was about mandatory minimums. Are you referring to the post DIRECTLY above your response? Theres a good manyu valid points raised about Obama's stance against gu owners there, and it has very little to do with madatory minimums Like I said, I don't expect you to side with me, but I don't see how you came to the conclusion that you did, because rereading it, that doesn't seem logical to me. Either I'm reading a different article than the one you're reading, or we have VASTLY different comprehension of what was said within it. please, show me where the majority of the article was "bitching about mandatory minimums"? I found it referred to ONCE
I DO agree with mandatory minimums for gun crimes. In fact, i'll go one further--I believe a person using a gun in an unjustifiable crime of violence should get life in prison. That would drastically reduce the number of repeat offenders, all the while making things easier for the rest of us who use guns responsibly in our day to day lives. it would more effective than any gun control program currently in place by taking violent offenders off the street and keeping them there Punish the damn criminals, and not everyone else who might want to own a firearm, i say. All you gun control advocates, theres the solution. However, the very same people who want increased gun control tend to be liberal-type people who also oppose mandatory minimums (not speaking directly about you Kwhite, but it is a general trend). Rather than punish the law-abiding citizenry, they seek to easwe things up on the offender side and restrict the rights of the law abiding portion of the population. you can't have your cake and eat it too.

__________________
Remember you're a wreck, an accident
forget the freak, you're just nature
Keep the gun oiled and the temple clean
shit, snort and blaspheme
Let the heads cool and the engine run
Because in the end,
everything we do
is just everything we've done..."Omega" by StoneSour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...ma#Gun_control
www.sportsmenforObama.org

KWhite

okay...

Responding to a Chicago Tribune questionnaire, Obama said he believed federal mandatory-sentencing laws used to put armed and violent predators behind bars should be abolished!

I worded that badly, the first one that leaped to my attention and that concerns me was that one.
You got me, but I am beginning to see that you take your debate opponents very, very literally.
That is good as I can use the exercise and discipline, I've not had to argue my points so often since I was on the staff of this joint.

In July 2005, Obama voted against the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, a vote against the rights of every law-abiding gun owner, dealer and manufacturer in America, and a vote against our national defense.

I don't know this one. did it pass, what did it say? If the military provides for the national defense, was this a bill to strip the military of weapons? Did it stop American manufacturers from selling weapons to the American military? Help me out, please.

Obama has supported bans on ammunition magazines, gun-lock mandates, renewal of the 1994 Clinton gun ban and California-style gun registration. He voted against confirmation of both Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Alito for the U.S. Supreme Court, and then refused to sign the pro-gun “friend-of-the-court” brief filed by 55 other senators and 250 House members in the District of Columbia v. Heller gun ban case.

Gun locks just make sense, the only saving grace I can see in a mandate is the fact that we have some very, very stupid and irresponsible parents out there.
The Clinton Gun ban, wan't that specifially addressing assault weapons? Pray, refresh my memory. if it was, I support him in this as I don't see any need for a private citizuen to have a Browning under his bed. I'd have voted against Roberts and Alito too. What were his reasons for not joinuing in on the Amicus Curiae, do you know them? Can you give me some particulars on the D.C. gun ban case. I have no information.

Obama supported Washington, D.C.’s total ban on handguns in the home for self-defense; and when Illinois lawmakers introduced a bill that would exonerate citizens for violating local gun bans if they used a gun to defend themselves in their homes, Obama voted “NO”!

I don't like this, however, as I have seen noted elsewhere on the site- the president doesn't have all th power of the government. He's way left of me on this, agreed, but he will be forced to debate and compromise any bill that he introduces to congress or that congress sends to him.

In 1999, on a vote in the Illinois senate on whether to try teenage gang-bangers as adults when they fire a gun on or near school grounds, Obama voted “present”, the functional equivalent of “NO”!

In 2001, when Illinois lawmakers tried to control rampant gang violence by making gang members eligible for the death penalty when they commit murder to help their gang, Obama voted against the measure.

I don't agree with either of these, they are populism of the foulest odor and in my oh so humble opinion the need for measures such as these would decline and then disappear if we removed the black market profits inherent in the prosecution of the drug war.

Armed robbery and extortion just would not support this many gang bangers, in my opinion.

I hope that makes it a bit clearer.

Remember, Granddad is old and his mind tends to wander....

mikeoshi

Why does everybody seem to think the president works alone in all of his decisions. Not that Bush has done anything noteworthy during his time in office but do you think he made any decisions alone? hell no, the guy's dumb as a rock. Obama, though much more intelligent than Bush, won't be making decisions or negotiating on his own.

As for catering to them... a comment like that would be expected from a guy with an icon of the statue of liberty holding an m16.

sterbo

And why, exacty, in his own words, is that?

__________________

 

troublemaker_42

No problem, here ya go!




Reason Magazine - Hit & Run > Is Obama's Position on the D.C. Gun Ban a Mystery?

But at a February 15 press conference in Milwaukee, Obama made it pretty clear that, while he believes the Second Amendment protects an individual right to arms, he does not think Chicago's handgun ban or the D.C. gun law, which effectively prohibits keeping a firearm at home for self-defense, violates that right:

Obama- Just curious if this fits your idea of common-sense gun control. Do YOU believe disarming the public in the areas of the highest crime is a wise decision? If so, why, when statistics show that gun bans have absolutely no effect on criminals and affects law-abiding citizens far more than criminals? Why NOT lock offenders up for longer perioids, rather than subject the general public to gun bans? Why limit the rights of citizens for the misdeeds of criminals?


So, it's "common sense regulation "to ban handguns from private citizens (because Washington and Chicago both have outright bans on possessing handguns), yet as I pointed out elsewhere, Obama doesn't feel the need to hold those who actually COMMIT gun violence accountable for their actions, by enforcing mandatory minimums against thevery people committing gun violence. Because, we all know, its the GUNS that cause the violence, not the people actually pulling the trigger of said guns. What it comes down to, in the simplest terms is that Obama would rather disarm the public in the areas of the highest crime rates, rather than enacting stronger legislation against the people actually misusing firearms.

Sterbo--Just curious if this fits your idea of common-sense gun control? Do YOU believe disarming the public in the areas of the highest crime is a wise decision? If so, why, when statistics show that gun bans have absolutely no effect on criminals and affects the law-abiding citizen far more than criminals? Why NOT lock offenders up for longer perioids, rather than subject the general public to gun bans? Why limit the rights of citizens for the misdeeds of criminals?

GREENFOODGAMES

I dont think our beloved redneck brothers will vote for him, and personally I dont care for him I find him egotistical. What about Nader for president that would be a leap and bound for us he is MJ friendly.

troublemaker_42

Heres a primary, but not sole, reason I don't like Obama, and will never support him as a presidential candidate--complete with sources if any of you doubt the validity of the statements

NRA-ILA :: Obama

Don’t Believe Obama!



The presidential primary season is finally over, and it is now time for gun owners to take a careful look at just where apparent nominee Barack Obama stands on issues related to the Second Amendment. During the primaries, Obama tried to hide behind vague statements of support for “sportsmen” or unfounded claims of general support for the right to keep and bear arms. But his real record, based on votes taken, political associations, and long standing positions, shows that Barack Obama is a serious threat to Second Amendment liberties. Don’t listen to his campaign rhetoric! Look instead to what he has said and done during his entire political career.

FACT: Barack Obama voted against the confirmation of 2 of the 5 Justices that affirmed an individual right to keep and bear arms.

FACT: Barack Obama voted to allow reckless lawsuits designed to bankrupt the firearms industry.1

FACT: Barack Obama wants to re-impose the failed and discredited Clinton Gun Ban.15

FACT: Barack Obama voted to ban almost all rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.3

FACT: Barack Obama has endorsed a 500% increase in the federal excise tax on firearms and ammunition.9


[/b]FACT: Barack Obama supports local gun bans in Chicago, Washington, D.C., and other cities.4

FACT: Barack Obama voted to uphold local gun bans and the criminal prosecution of people
who use firearms in self-defense.5

FACT: Barack Obama supports gun owner licensing and gun registration.6

FACT: Barack Obama refused to sign a friend-of-the-court Brief in support of individual Second Amendment rights in the Heller case.

FACT: Barack Obama opposes Right to Carry laws.7

FACT: Barack Obama was a member of the Board of Directors of the Joyce Foundation, the leading source of funds for anti-gun organizations and “research.”8

FACT: Barack Obama supported a proposal to ban gun stores within 5 miles of a school or park, which would eliminate almost every gun store in America.9

FACT: Barack Obama voted not to notify gun owners when the state of Illinois did records searches on them.10

FACT: Barack Obama voted against a measure to lower the Firearms Owners Identification card age minimum from 21 to 18, a measure designed to assist young people in the military.11

FACT: Barack Obama favors a ban on standard capacity magazines.12

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory micro-stamping.13

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory waiting periods.2

FACT: Barack Obama supports repeal of the Tiahrt Amendment, which prohibits information on gun traces collected by the BATFE from being used in reckless lawsuits against firearm dealers and manufacturers.14

FACT: Barack Obama supports one-gun-a-month handgun purchase restrictions.16

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on inexpensive handguns.9

FACT: Barack Obama supports a ban on the resale of police issued firearms, even if the money is going to police departments for replacement equipment.9

FACT: Barack Obama supports mandatory firearm training requirements for all gun owners and a ban on gun ownership for persons under the age of 21.9
1. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 219, July 2, 2005. (U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote)

2. Independent Voters of Illinois/Independent Precinct Organization general candidate questionnaire, Sept. 9, 1996. The responses on this survey were described in “Obama had greater role on liberal survey,” Politico, March 31, 20087. (Obama had greater role on liberal survey - Kenneth P. Vogel - Politico.com)

3. United States Senate, S. 397, vote number 217, Kennedy amendment July 2, 2005. (U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote)

4. David Wright, Ursula Fahy and Sunlen Miller, "Obama: 'Common Sense Regulation' On Gun Owners' Rights," ABC News' "Political Radar" Blog, Political Punch, 2/15/08. (Political Radar: Obama: 'Common Sense Regulation' on Gun Owners' Rights)

5. Illinois Senate, March 25, 2004 SB 2165, vote 20.

6. In the Illinois Senate, Obama sponsored SB-1136, which would have amended Illinois licensing laws by increasing the requirements for the Illinois Firearm Owners Identification card. When asked about registration during the Nevada Democratic debate on January 17, 2008, Obama did not oppose it, but simply stated, “I don’t think that we can get that done.” (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/us...pagewanted=all)

7. “Candidates' gun control positions may figure in Pa. vote,” Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, Wednesday, April 2, 2008, and "Keyes, Obama Are Far Apart On Guns," Chicago Tribune, 9/15/04. (Candidates' gun control positions may figure in Pa. vote - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review)

8. 1998 Joyce Foundation Annual Report, p. 7.

9. “Obama and Gun Control,” The Volokh Conspiracy, taken from the Chicago Defender, Dec. 13, 1999. (The Volokh Conspiracy - Obama and Gun Control:)

10. Illinois Senate, May 5, 2002, SB 1936 Con., vote 26.

11. Illinois Senate, March 25, 2003, SB 2163, vote 18.

12. “Clinton, Edwards, Obama on gun control,” Radio Iowa, Sunday, April 22, 2007. (Radio Iowa: Clinton, Edwards, Obama on gun control)

13. Chicago Tribune blogs, “Barack Obama: NIU Shootings call for action,” February 15, 2008, (The Swamp: Barack Obama: NIU shootings call for action)

14. Barack Obama campaign website: “As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment . . .” (Barack Obama | Change We Can Believe In | UrbanPolicy.)

15. Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes (Barack Obama on Gun Control and Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes) Oct 21, 2004.

16. Illinois Senate, May 16, 2003, HB 2579, vote 34.



Makes me wonder how ANY responsible gun owner could vote for the guy..... His claims of supporting the 2nd Amendment seem to be lacking in practice, and the equivalent of so much hot air and bullshit. If he supports the Second Amendment, why did he refuse to sign his name in support of gun ownership being an individual right when the issue was before the Supreme Court? Becasue, friends, this man is not going to a friend to gun owners in any way, and will do whatever he can in his power to make private ownership of firearms as difficult as possible. I have no respect for a candidate that has lead such an extensive assault on our rights as American gun owners.

GREENFOODGAMES

I must say it is an issue I have with him as well being I target shoot, tournament shoot, rifle and bow hunt, and ammo has become expensive enough as of late. It is more than just his decision to take our hobby away,I just hope it does not happen.

troublemaker_42

The thought of a Congress controlled by Democrats with Barak Obama as president frightens me to the very core as a gun owner.....one or the other is scary enough, but together, coupled with the fact Obama (if president) will possibly have the power to name multiple Supreme Court justices, should have every gun owner running to the polls this year....not to vote for McCain, but to vote AGAINST Obama