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SacredJellybean

I agree with this, but if "Black Power! Take down Whitey who's oppressing us!" is what Wright preaches, is it the only thing he preaches? Maybe Wright makes sense on other topics? I certainly agree with him about the blowback from interfering with foreign affairs. He's saying that our state-sponsored terrorism isn't so different from radical Islamic terrorists. I'm not certain I disagree with him, I guess it depends on the act/context. Answer me this, does Obama have to believe every single thing his preacher believes on every level? No, I think the notion is absurd.

I don't like the race card any more than you do. I don't believe we should apologize for what we aren't responsible for, for what our forefathers did. That said, you would have to be ignorant to deny that racism still exists today, and that black people and other minorities are indeed disadvantaged when compared to the opportunities of a white man. Again, we're making great strides, but much work is still to be done. For this reason, I sympathize with any black person who has ever been on the receiving end for said racism. That's why I find it more excusable than White Power sentiment, though I do disagree with any separatist values. Again, I point out that Obama is distancing himself from race in his campaign.

I like how you're taking the "he's like an uncle" quote out of context. Unless you're referring to something other than what Viper posted (if so, I'd like a reference, if you don't mind). The entire quote, regarding Wright's radical positions, is that "he's like an uncle who says things you sometimes disagree with". Not quite the same thing as you're saying, is it?

From the wikipedia link you gave me:

__________________
"Every age has its peculiar folly and if Charles Mackay, the author of the 19th century classic, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds were alive today he would surely see 'cannabinophobia' as a popular delusion along with the 'tulipmania' and 'witch hunts' of earlier ages. ... I also believe that future historians will look at this epoch and recognize it as another instance of the 'madness of crowds.'"
~Dr. Lester Grinspoon

 

troublemaker_42

OK, heres where my main argument falls...Why would you attend a church for 20 years if you didn't agree with the message being taught there? Why would you distance yourself from the comments only at this point if they were so appalling and if you disagreed with his views so strongly as to "reject them outright"? What good is going go church if you are going to dismiss the message being taught, and more importantly, how would you feel if, as a friend/mentor/teacher/reverand (insert anyone you'd have any sort of relationship here) listend to you, stood by your side, and then, after 20 years, attempts to seperate himself from you because the association no longer serves a purpose for him? He basically turned his back on the man who has been someone he's looked up for decades, because now its hurting his image rather than helping it? What kind of integrity does it show when you can sell out those who were once important to you once theres any degree of negativity associated with that person? People are calling this, along with other issues involvoing Obama, a "non-issue" and whatnot, yet it reeks of reverse racism. Had McCain came out with viewpoints that were a direct 180 from what the Reverand has, he'd be burnt at the stake as a typical white racist hatemonger. Historical context be damned....if McCain, or even his church, labeled Black People as the evil incarnate, and if the head of the church had ties to the KKK (no different than a Black person having ties to Farakkahn, IMO), McCain would be laughed out of consideration for office. Don't get me wrong....I understand that the Reveard in question DOES cover many other topics than those covered by the accusations, but really, how MUCH racism are you going to tolerate? You said he seemed a "little racist". What amount of racism is accecptable, and more importantly, how much racism can we allow to be promoted in the name of God? Its one thing to be a racist, its another to pass off such subtle (or not) racism as the work of the Almighty

Also, you said you feel sorry for anyone on the recieiving end of racism. Welcome to the reality of the 21st Century. As someone who could never be mistaken as anything but White, I've been the victim of racism more times than I can count. Live on or nearby an American indian reservation and tell me Whites cannot be subjected to racism every bit as intense as that suffered by others. However, while giving me a reason to be angry at the the individuals who judged me in such a way, it does not give me the right to stand at the pulpit and, as a man of God, attack that race for judging me. A handful of ignorance and hate doesn't give me license to attack the entire race for the injustices I've felt i suffered. "Its justified" is a poor excuse for allowing racism of any kind.

__________________
Remember you're a wreck, an accident
forget the freak, you're just nature
Keep the gun oiled and the temple clean
shit, snort and blaspheme
Let the heads cool and the engine run
Because in the end,
everything we do
is just everything we've done..."Omega" by StoneSour

www.sportsmenforObama.org

Viper420

I only mentioned the blinders because of your willingness to sidestep the racist content of this "man of God". He didn't wake up one morning and say "Hey, I think I'm going to be a racist today." He has been on that path for years and you can bet Barak heard that message more than once. If he was any kind of leader, he should have stopped that preacher dead in his tracks or at the very least got up and left that church and joined another. The very fact that he kept listening to this hatemonger speaks volumes about his character.

Bud&bluntman

pray to god that he dosnt get in office, or hillary clinton. She will ruin the country much like her husband. Because holding hands with other countrys and giving money to dieing african kids is really going to make things good.... yeah right.

SacredJellybean

It seems to me that this racism isn't really the focal point of all his sermons, only a few controversial clips that were likely scoured from video tapes by journalists to pick up anything juicy. I think it's plausible to attend services for 20 years and find at least a few things you disagree with, don't you? Have you agreed with everything your friends/mentors/teachers/reverends have told you? Is homogenized thinking more widespread than I had imagined? It's obvious that Wright has delivered other sermons that Obama has found inspiring, but to take every crazy belief of Wright's and to automatically attribute it to Obama seems a bit presumptuous.

If it wasn't human nature to cherry-pick the beliefs of one's established religion, we wouldn't have so many varied denominations of Christianity.

You must know Obama personally to have so much information about his decisions and thought processes. I know things are busy with his campaign, crunch-time against Hillary and all, but do you think you can set up an appointment with me some time?

I feel there is a contradiction in what you're saying. First, you assert that Obama has looked up to Wright enough to adopt his radical ideals. Now, you say that Obama is distancing himself from Wright because "the association no longer serves a purpose for him"? Wouldn't he still serve a purpose to him if Obama really believed in the controversial things Wright expressed? In this context, you seem to use "purpose" as though it were something politically convenient, which it clearly isn't.

It's a lose/lose situation for Obama, really. If he keeps Wright on board, his critics will pounce on him and declare that he definitely shares Wright's beliefs. Now that Wright is out, people have the chance to weave paranoid little stories about personal integrity and deceit, and how Obama is a wolf in sheep's clothing after all.

I've already told you that I have less respect for white organizations discriminating against minorities than vice-versa. I don't like any racism, let's be clear on that. I don't like reverse-racism, but I realize that there are certain trivial things you have to concede to help lower racism in general, like relinquishing the right to say the N-word.

I know that if I had a great teacher who had beliefs I really respected, I wouldn't be completely disgusted by them if they were a little racist. How much racism is to be tolerated? If the teacher is a far swing of the pendulum, believing minorities are worthless and inferior, I would not tolerate that or listen to the teacher. If the teacher said something awkward and embarrassing every once in a while, such as "My car got broken into the other day... was probably those damn Mexicans down the road", I would turn a blind eye if I thought that the other teachings were valuable enough. I'm not in Obama's shoes, I haven't listened to all of Wright's sermons, nor do I want to. I do think Obama deserves the benefit of the doubt.

It would be intolerably racist if Wright were, say, promoting violence and hatred towards all white people in order to advance only the black man. However, Wright has stated that he doesn't feel his church is separatist, and that he isn't only for the advancement of black people. Are his other beliefs about the government keeping down the black man racist and offensive? Of course. But unless I am convinced that this theme is ongoing and a focal point of many of his sermons, it does not faze me that Obama has found inspiration in some of what this man has said.

You're discriminated against on an allocated set of land dominated by Native Americans? You poor dear. Would you trade places with any of those Native Americans? I would not. I have nothing against any ethnic group of people, but would prefer to not be in there shoes only insofar as the fact that racism is still very much alive today, and that being a white male puts me at a better advantage in socioeconomic advancement. It's something I try not to take for granted.

America's a great place, and the opportunities for every person who is willing to put in some effort are wonderful. But to deny that one group of people has an edge over the rest is simply untrue. That's why I don't feel sorry for white people crying about reverse-racism. No type of racism is good, but you could be worse-off, okay?

 

SacredJellybean

Again, I don't see why it's impossible for Obama to cherry-pick what Wright has preached. Do you always see things in black and white?

Viper420

Can you cherry pick Hitlers speeches? Can you cherry pick the speeches made by the grand dragon of the KKK? Why are are you so willing to accept racism from Wright? Is it because he is black? Is it acceptable for anyone to put out hate speech? Shouldn't we all condemn racism, no matter where we find it?

troublemaker_42

The difference seems to me that you will tolerate a bit of racism from a supposed man of God, and I won't. You are willing to overlook a presidential candidate attending services where racism, in any degree, is commonly accecpted. I won't. The overall messages taught by the Reverand aren't isolated, rare instances. From my understanding, such issues are commonplace, which means we''re in a position where a candiddate who has listened to racially motivated hate messages off and on for 20 years may be elected president. Black, white, purple, green....Racism is racism, regardless of color, I won't buy the argument some racism is justified because of the color of your skin. Racism, reverse racism....none of it shouold be tolerated, and people like you who seem to think its OK because its "justified sometimes" only contribute to the problem. When there is a zero tolerance for race-based hate, MAYBE we can eliminate racism. As of now, you are as much of the problem as the Reverand. You think if its justified,to any degree, racism is just fine.
Don't get me wrong, the racist services aren't the only reason why I won't be voting for Obama, but its certainly something added to an already lengthy list. At one point, I was scared to death of seeing another Republican become president after the Bush fiasco. Now, however, I'm even more frightened the Republican candidate may NOT win. Thew Democratic party, IMO, shot itself in the foot witht he candidates they chose. IMO, they basically were a shoo-in for president, but picked two people even some democrats can't get behind. McCain isn't my ideal choice for president, but given the altrernatives, he seems loike the ONLY choice remianing.

Viper420

I expect absolutely no racism from a "man of God" and I expect a man who wants to run this country to confront and oppose racism whenever he or she encounters it. Obama has obviously tolerated it for 20 years....is that presidential?

SacredJellybean

Oh gee, I had no idea Wright was like HITLER. Please forgive me for defending such a heinous, reprehensible person. Can you really even call what Wright is saying hate speech? It seems more like crazy conspiracy theory stuff to me. If Wright claims his church is not separatist, I'm sure he would also claim that he isn't a racist and doesn't deliver racist messages. I don't think you can call him a black version of the KKK. Is it racist to think a group of white people are keeping down minorities by drugging them and giving them diseases? Yes, it is. But Wright isn't saying that all white people are terrible and should be discriminated against based on race/skin color. Can you see the difference?

Is there any reference to confirm whether racially-inflammatory sermons from Wright were/are common? (it might even be in that article you gave me, which I haven't gotten around to reading yet). It seems to me that the media is jumping onto isolated incidents, but I could be wrong.

I'm as much of a problem as an allegedly racist preacher? Uh... thanks? How is that possible if I don't deliver a sermon or any other kind of discourse on a regular basis? I never said reverse-racism is "fine", I said it's more tolerable than racism. Idealistically, there should never be any racism, but I'm a realist and I recognize that helping solve our racism problem DOES mean a few double-standards. For example, say, the allowance of white people to say the N-word, or having a White Entertainment Television channel, or whatever ridiculous crap people crying about reverse-racism usually bring up. I'm not a separatist, so don't paint me with that brush.

It's more presidential than backpedalling about tax cuts because one needs the support of the republican base. Is it Obama's place to speak out against his spiritual leader because he disagrees with a few things he says?