Marijuana.com

BC.Buddy

They're worth more than you think. It's a very valid point. Unless Buzzby is right and it has to be political crimes.

I'm not sure what political crimes are though. Maybe Buzzby has already told us, if so I didn't see the post.

My perspective on the extradition is parallel to yours, though. In that the country can not arrest someone for their political beliefs or activities. And the D.E.A. most certainly targeted him for his political activities. Now, they didn't specifically charge him for his political activism (ie. Mr. Emery, your under arrest for blaspheming against the U.S. war machine). But if that was the case, what would be the use of the provision?

__________________
BC Marijuana Party
"Overgrow The Government"
| Cannabis Culture | Pot TV |

- Proud Cannabis User -

 

Buzzby

How do you get that? Ms. Tandy did not say that they wanted to arrest Marc Emery to hurt the Canadian legalization movement. She said that his his arrest was a blow to the Canadian legalization movement, a fact that few would dispute. That blow is a natural side effect of arresting him for his alleged crimes.

The MLAT and the Extradition Act don't care about the motivations of the people requesting arrest and extradition. How can you ever know anyone's real motivations? Only the nature of the alleged crimes matters and the request specified crimes that are not political in nature and which are on the books of both countries.

__________________

BC.Buddy

He gets that however he wants to. Again I ask you Buzzby, do you know this as fact? Do you know that it's the way it works?

Also, "how can you ever know anyone's real motivations"

When the head of the organization calls the arrest a successful blow to the legalization movement. If it was successful, that means they tried.

Buzzby

If you're asking if I'm an expert in international law, no I'm not. Does everything I've read about the MLAT and the Extradition Act support what I've said? Yes it does.


Do you dispute that the arrest was a successful blow to the legalization movement? If you do not, then Ms. Tandy's statement is a simple statement of fact and has nothing to do with motivation. She did not say, "We wanted him arrested to interfere with the Canadian legalization movement." That his arrest had a peripheral effect about which she was happy is irrelevant. She's as entitled to her views as much as you are to yours.

Besides, from what I can glean from the MLAT and the Extradition Act, motivation is not a factor. The only thing that matters is the charges in the request for arrest and extradition.

Isn't this exactly what I said in my last post on this thread? Ask me something new. This is getting boring.

BC.Buddy

So, you admit you're not an expert, yet you sit here and argue your perspective as I do. Telling me what's what, like you are an expert, as I do, like an expert.

So, I've got the vested interest in the case, and you just don't care, and then you wonder why I persist.

Everything that I've read about the MLAT and the Extradition Act support what I've said as well. The same can be said for folks I know in the legal profession, Canadian politicians, column writers for national newspapers, organizations such as yours (NORML CANADA) and members in this forum as well.

So, who's right? Buzzby? BC.Buddy? The actual legal conclusion of this case, perhaps? Why don't we wait and see? And you can consider Marc and his associates doomed, I can consider them not, you can keep your hope for the American war machine, and I can keep my hope for the Canadian conscience.

We'll see if the U.S. is successful in their attack on the legalization movement in Canada when the trial ends. Not before. Innocent until proven guilty. Remember, even murderers that confess are still innocent until proven guilty. And although I will not dispute the large potential for guilt, I still believe in a fair trial.

Let me carve out a scenario for you so you can sympathize. If some legal loophole allowed the U.S. government to shut down NORML and then made a statement saying that it was a successful blow to the legalization movement, what would your mindset be?

Especially if that legal loophole is not supposed to be used for political purposes. Would you be upset? Or would you bow down to them and help their cause by arguing the legal right they had?

I know you wouldn't argue that it's not legal, as I am not arguing that the MLAT is not a valid international treaty or selling marijuana seeds is not illegal. But would you try and get public support to try and make sure NORML was not shut down? Maybe not.

I know Marc Emery is of no interest to you; because not only is he a different type of activist, a type you feel the movement is threatened by somehow(You've still failed on telling us how), but he's also Canadian and you don't consider the legalization movement in Canada important or significant. Do you dare deny that? Don't even try, you've told me that even if it were to be legalized here, it would absolutely no effect on the U.S. so it's not in your best interests as an activist to pursue it.

So, again, if this is boring to you, then move on, no one's holding you back. In fact, these Marc Emery threads would seem a lot more hopeful for 'legalizationists' and a lot less stale and unsympathetic to the rising number of victims in your governments jihad on this beautiful plant.

There's a nice twist of words! I mean, come on!

"If you do not, then Ms. Tandy's statement is a simple statement of fact and has nothing to do with motivation." ?!?!

No, that is not simple logic, that's your perspective Buzzby, and your perspective is no more valid or invalid than my own. It's just less sympathetic and more cold.

I don't dispute that is was a successful blow, you do. Does that mean it's a simple fact, or a slip up that should be used to our advantage?

You refuse to believe that Karen Tandy's just a human being and can make mistakes and is getting grilled by her superiors for potentially letting go of the #1 and only "drug kingpin" in Canada. And I refuse to believe that your D.E.A. is an honest, good hearted organization that is merely cleaning up your country and doesn't have political best interests in continuing the prohibition of marijuana.

You're bored?



I'm not.

:spark:

 

killer12382

The DEA has made statements concerning their attitude towards Canada's views towards marijuana. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that their attack on Marc Emery is more than JUST a bust of a seed dealer. It is the deliberate silencing of a political enemy. (the KGB would be proud) There are seed dealers out there that are just as successful as Emery (some of your sponsors) but they're not getting whacked (yet). So if they aren't going down and this guy is, then what does that tell you? Inquiring minds want to know.

BC.Buddy

Yeah, but apparently, as Buzzby and Niteshift and a few others have gone to great lengths to point out, it seems that the fact the D.E.A. is trying to play politics in Canada means absolutely nothing to the case. Marc may actually serve 10 years to life (probably life, he's the #1 and only greatest drug lord threat in Canada!) in a piece of ****, notoriously tatterdemalion() U.S. federal prison.

Great attitude a lot of senior members here try to create, huh?

Buzzby

Did I ever claim to be an expert? Did you? What's your point? We're two people who, based on what we know, have a difference of opinion.


That's great! Please point out the text that says the motivations of the agency requesting arrest and extradition are grounds for denial.


I'm not a member of NORML Canada. All the people you mention have an axe to grind. I do not. I'm simply interested in the truth.


I am, at least 98% of the time.


That's fine with me. You stop posting about it and so will I. My only interest is in the truth. When I see things posted that I consider to be untrue I feel it's my duty to point them out.


:: Oh Canada! plays maple leaf flag drifts in the breeze::
What, pray tell, does this have to do with "the American war machine"? It's a drug bust that's being blown all out of proportion because the bustee is a Canadian stoner national hero. I don't like the DEA any more than you do, despite your repeated accusations that I work for them. It would be wonderful if Your Hero got off the hook on which he set himself but I just don't see it happening on the basis of the alleged "motivations" of the DEA.


What attack? They busted someone who broke marijuana laws. They're happy about it because they don't like marijuana. Would you expect otherwise?


I thought it was understood that we're simply voicing our opinions here and that they have no bearing on the outcome of the trial. Neither of us can declare anyone "Innocent" or "Guilty", so your repeated protestations of "Innocent until proven guilty" are meaningless in this context. You seem to be saying that no one should be allowed to express their opinion as to Marc's guilt until the trial's over and that we're all obligated, somehow, to think he's innocent. That wouldn't leave much room for debate, would it?


I'd expect only that the letter of the law would be enforced. If NORML had broken the law I'd be looking for another pro-legalization organization that hadn't broken the law. Is Marc Emery the BCMP? I thought they shut down a drug dealer and his illegal business, not the BCMP. They certainly didn't shut down NORML Canada. NORML has always been sensible enough not to have a drug dealer as their front man. It would be a serious image problem.


Could you please stop asking me questions and then answering them in my name? I'm beginning to find it irritating and it's extremely bad debating technique. The Canadian movement is not of great interest to me, largely because marijuana is effectively legal there already. They even allow international drug dealers operate in the open! You have to try really hard to get sent to jail for marijuana offenses. It took Marc Emery 10 arrests.


I'd be glad to, except for this nagging obsession with the truth. As long as I see things said here that I consider to be untrue I feel obliged to counter them.


I'm sure you'd be happier if no one challenged your opinions. Too bad! Hope is a very pleasant emotion. However, when dealing with the legal system I've found that the facts are much more important.


You've lost me here. How does stating that Emery's bust was a blow to the Canadian legalization movement infer that that's why he was busted? The fact that I'm not building my argument on a phony inference makes my opinion more valid in this case.


I'm interested in debating the facts. You seem to be interested in something much more touchy-feely, like oratory. I'm a disinterested party, trying to understand a situation. My tendency is to be sympathetic to the pro-pot side of things but, going by the facts, I don't see where you have much of a case.


I do? Thanks for telling me what I think. It's very unfortunate for your group of activists that you are so dependent on one man for leadership and funding. It's even more unfortunate that that funding came from an illegal enterprise. You've built your house upon the sand and are suffering the consequences.


How is it a slip-up? Would you expect the head of the drug police to be sad that they've created a roadblock for a pro-drug movement? It in no way indicates that this was the reason for the arrest and extradition request and even if it was it would have no bearing on the treaty obligations which deny extradition only on requests involving political crimes. That the criminal is also an activist is not of any consequence.


Have you heard anything to that effect or is that just wishful thinking on your part? l can't refuse to believe it because I've never heard a suggestion that it was taking place, until you made one just now. I require evidence before I hypothesize, much less believe.


You don't need to. All you need to believe is that the DEA is a police agency tasked with controlling drugs. I assume that they do have an interest in continuing their own existence. What organization doesn't? What I don't see is how that's a consideration when the request for arrest and extradition named drug crimes and nothing else.


And that's the problem when trying to debate with a True Believer. They're impervious to logic and will just keep repeating the same things over and over until a rational debater gets bored and moves on to something more interesting.

greypoe

This thread looks like absolute Chaos!
My understanding on this is that Marc is raising funds to support his legal defense, Pot-TV, and the bookstore. Im having trouble understanding why lawyer's aren't jumping to his rescue to support cannabis. Marc's Real Defense is in the people! I talked to Marc today, he is depending on us, the activists to organize on our own. This is our fight you know.

If I were in Marc's position right now, I wouldn't know who to trust. What I want to know, is if I can trust in your support in this GrassRoots Machine.
We absolutely must start this now. If your up to the challange, I DARE you to accept. For $30 you can get 100 postcards, its up to you and your group to get them signed.

I've been exploring the activism front in my city. Finding out what its like, how people will react when you offer them a postcard. Many people are afraid to sign. There are many out there who do not believe cannabis will be legal. Their spirits are broken, after so many years of it being illegal. Will we let the same thing happen in Canada? Marc's Arrest has caused a stir in cannaba. We should turn it into a beehive of action, before this furry fizzles into dispair.

One other note, Postcards aren't enough. People need education, we need brochures. The Complete Activist Package will contain Brochures, Postcards, Stickers, and Rubber Bracelets. The most important are the first 3. Its only going to take $1000 to make this possible for hundereds of people to obtain activist packages everywhere. Im working on this website, I need to figure out how to keep a online spreadsheet of the cash flow, and expenditures, to show supporter's where the money is.

__________________
The GrassRoots Machine
GrassRoots Machine
Finding innovative ways to grow support for Cannabis Legalization.

BC.Buddy

You're absolutely right Greypoe. I'd like to see this misfortune be turned into an advantage for us, not an advantage for them.

I've registered with your Grassroots Machine. I'm going to check it out before I recommend it, but the premise sounds great. Your attitude to activism is admirable. It's just one facet though, and I'm sure we'll talk extensively about it in the times to come.