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Jimmy Jim

How much money does the Government make every year from seizing peoples' property? I've heard they routinely confisgate cars from guys accused of trying to pick up prostitutes.

This is what made the witchcraft trials last so long: the guy who identified the witch got 1/3; the government got 1/3; and the Church got 1/3 of the accused witch's property (unless the ***** wouldn't confess, and a lot of witches wouldn't at first).

Then like now, nothing pisses off a person more than having their property stolen. Whether by a crook with a gun, or Uncle Sam with a mask. Yes, a bunch of politicians can make any law they choose and make the police follow it, but these are unpopular laws with the people ... especially when they start seizing property for non-payment of a traffic fine.

But if this practice is performed routinely by the governing entity, haven't they at that point become some kind of "business monopoly," and accordingly no longer the government exempt from taxation?

 

HappyMan

Should criminals go unpunished? There are people out there who own property gained through illegal activity. Why should a criminal keep something bought with illegaly generated money?


Is your complaint about Property Seizure is general or something more specific?

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Jimmy Jim

Not per se. I think we need to define criminal.
Is it the guy who sticks a knife in you, or tries? Sure!
Is it a guy growing pot in the outhouse for his own personal consumption? I don't have a problem with it, any more than I would have the guy brewing beer in his cellar during the war on alcohol.
My problem is that the Government doesn't see it that way, and automatically accuses the guy growing pot as some kind of conspirator and then proceeds to take everything he owns.

Niteshift

You're looking at this too narrowly. You're indicting seizure (and forfeiture) as a whole, based on your opinions about marijuana. A lot of things are seized and forfeited that have nothing to do with drug crimes.

"I've heard they routinely confisgate cars from guys accused of trying to pick up prostitutes."

Some places do. They also do it with drunk drivers. The problem is that you are confusing seizure and forfeiture. Seizing your car and depriving you use of it for 3 days because you're a drunk driver is not the same as forfeiture, which is PERMANENTLY taking ownership from you. Forfeiture requires a seperate, civil hearing in front of a judge.

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HappyMan

We need more civil education in this country. Not enough people know how the system works.

 

dedbr

I believe that this country has turned to money as it's new god,and that seizure and forfeiture are merely the end result of this new area of worship.
Nine times out of ten,it's about the benjamins.

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Niteshift

dedbr,

You're thinking limited too.

When you see a figure of the millions of dollars worth of stuff seized then forfeited (and NONE of it is worth anything to the government until it's forfeited), you're thinking of cool cars, cash and prime real estate. You're forgetting the other stuff.

Some totally useless things (in terms of resale or conversion) that I've seen included in forfeitures: Slot machines, other gambling equipment, virtually obselete computers, businesses that cost the government money to run, old VCR's, 9" black and white TV's........the list goes on.

Now some of that stuff has to be destroyed as contraband (like the slot machines), but it first has to be forfeited. It has value (let's say $200). Now that $200 goes into that multi-million dollar figure, but we (the government) get nothing out of it.

Sure, we can get $5 at an auction for the 9" TV, but the value in the forfeiture hearing was $75. We take the old 486 computer with a 25 mhz processor from the guy using it to store kiddie porn, but, despite it's $150-200 value in the hearing, it's virtually useless to anyone and ends up being destroyed or sold for $10 at auction.

Yeah, we made $10 from the computer and $5 from the TV, but look at the difference in the percentage between the declared value and the actual value.

See where this is going?

And it happens more than you think.

Ross

That makes a lot of sense, I finally understand seizure and forfeiture. Thanks Niteshift for always explaining everything so clearly

grassmike

My biggest problem is with taking people's houses because they grow marijuana. This can be done over one plant that someone is growing for recreational use or medical use.

To take the profits of someone that had a large grow operation is one thing. Of course, I have a problem with all the MJ laws to start with. The seizure of a person's house is allowed because the house facilites or is used in the crime of growing marijuana and money collected from illegal sales is not a factor.

So if a person grows MJ in an apartment he does not have to get a criminal penalty and a civil penalty. Now if you own the house, the government wants it. I say it is unjustifiable and is the most outrageous part of the marijuana laws.

I think there are two states and I will say Oregon that have passed laws to prevent the state authorities from claiming property until there is a criminal conviction. The sickening part of it is they pass it on to the feds that take the property and give maybe 80% of the money back.

There is a legitimate complaint about the attitude that law enforcement and the laws concerning forfeiture are concerned. Even when state legislatures try to stop it, the feds are there to help seize property.

dedbr

I rendered an opinion,and not a statement of fact.
Of course,the seizure amounts are always wrong when it comes to dollar values,you are right about that.My point was that all things in the present society that we live in are based on monentary greed instead of a justifiable motive.
Case in point.say an individual has purchased a classic auto some years ago,and later on in life gets busted for a crime that allows seizure of property and forfeiture of same for conviction of the law.Even though the auto was purchased with legal funds,it is still seized because that is now considered part of the punishment in our present day society.
Ya,I know,how do the police know what was purchased when?They don't.So they just grab anything that has a value and is easily disposable.I believe the exact nature of this law is also to destroy a persons chances of ever having a normal life again.
What used to be is not now and will never be again!