Silverbackman

It seems that many activists (not all but many) haven't shaken off the reefer madness scares themselves. They want to half-ass the reverse of pot's demonization by comparing it to alcohol and tobacco. However there is absolutely no comparison between alcohol and tobacco vs cannabis. Yet activists want to concede with prohibitionists to a certain extent by having the same regulations (sin taxes, legal ages, ect.). Some even want its legal age to be the same as alcohol (21)........have you lost your mind? I mean no offense but seriously, alcohol is far more toxic and dangerous than weed could ever be. Alcohol itself is more intoxicating than most illegal drugs and is more comparable to cocaine and heroin. And of course tobacco is one of the most addictive drugs on the planet.......heroin for example has a 20% addiction rate while tobacco has a 90% addiction rate. Cannabis is basically non-addictive.

For those who think cannabis should be treated like alcohol and tobacco, would you except the same regulation on caffeine? Caffeine produces far more harms than cannabis.......more overdoses and over 10,000 deaths related from being triggered by caffeine (ulcers, irregular heartbeat leading to heart failure, ect.), and yet there are no regulations on it.

For example, many parents are worried that without a legal age kids will have uncontrolled access to cannabis. Yet these same parents don't care that a can of caffeinated soda is equivalent to an adult dose for a child. And coffee of course is easily within their reach, meaning many kids dose themselves with many times dosages their body needs while parents don't usually care as much. The reasons are pretty simple why many adults care so much.......they unconsciously haven't gotten rid of all the reefer madness propaganda with them. After all cannabis is illegal and in the most tightly controlled category.......even if they see this as bullshit.......they don't want to take any chances and thus become more primal and irrational if young people and cannabis are brought up.

I'm not saying kids should use cannabis......I personally think children should stay away from ALL psychoactives (including caffeine of course) until their bodies have fully developed. But it is hypocrisy to have a reefer madness reaction to a younger person taking cannabis while not having the same reaction towards caffeine consumption.

And the more people say cannabis is like alcohol and tobacco the less people will buy its safety. Many people don't like what alcohol and tobacco have already done for society.......why would they want another alcohol and tobacco-like product to "corrupt" their children? After all to them it seems like cannabis contains a combined alcohol-tobacco harm package. It's smoked like tobacco, and produces a noticeable degree of "intoxication"......so why would they want this double-wammy to replace the other two? Even if cannabis smoking is nothing like tobacco smoking and the "intoxication" of cannabis is nothing like alcohol intoxication.

Activists should instead point out that cannabis is less harmful than caffeine, instead of half-assing cannabis to the status of alcohol and tobacco.

Buzzby

Politics is the art of compromise and the art of the possible. You can ask for pie in the sky, but you'll be really hungry before you get any. To insist that marijuana be unregulated means that it'll never be legalized. That's why the smart activists (including all of the major pro-legalization organizations) are for regulation.

Sure there is. Alcohol and cannabis are both intoxicants. Tobacco and cannabis are both smoked.

No. We'd just like to see cannabis legalized within our lifetimes. The biggest objection to legalization is "What about the children?" There are certain things that are appropriate for adults that are not appropriate for children. If we fail to recognize that fact, our chances of getting marijuana legalized are small fading to zero.

The health aspects of alcohol are not the primary reason it's illegal for minors. It's its intoxicating effects and resulting irresponsible behavior. Marijuana also has intoxicating effects. Users often behave irresponsibly. Every day on these boards we hear from kids who are toking up before, during, and after school. The level of illiteracy amongst some of these people is appalling. The premise for these age restrictions is that adults have more self-control than minors and are, therefore, less likely to get into trouble.

While cannabis and alcohol can be compared because they're both intoxicants, caffeine is a stimulant. While probably not the healthiest thing in the world for anyone, drinking coffee or colas doesn't get you high, at least not in a way that prevents you from accomplishing what you need to get done.

Interesting idea.... I'm 58 and I've been using cannabis for 40 years. I still don't think it's appropriate for children to be using powerful, consciousness-altering drugs. Caffeine, though, just gives you an energy boost.

Why? Just because they both fall into the category "drugs"? Their effects are totally different. One gets you high. The other just raises your energy level.

__________________

Silverbackman

I think our entire approach to the issue should be met in a slightly different way. If people pointed out that cannabis is less harmful than caffeine (which is unregulated), then people would see that cannabis regulation doesn't make any sense. The problem is that cannabis is more often compared to alcohol and tobacco, even though they are nothing alike in their potential for abuse. Alcohol and tobacco are close to cocaine and heroin than they are to cannabis in their potential for "abuse".

I mean there is even rehab programs for cannabis, even though cannabis is non-addictive (yet there are never rehab programs for caffeine which is addictive, as well as nicotine: the most addictive drug). It's easy to see why people then more often compare it to alcohol which is more harmful. But cannabis users don't need to be in any rehab ever......if we do that then there should be rehab for TV, internet, and anything else that can be psychologically addictive (which is of course anything).

Perhaps we should take this one step at a time.....but eventually there should be no regulation on it.

Define "intoxicant". If you mean a loss of sense, I'm sure there are many people who will disagree......many people feel more heightened on cannabis, unlike alcohol.

However if by intoxicant you mean alteration of consciousness, then yes cannabis is a intoxicant. However so is tobacco, caffeine, and a whole other bunch of legal and less regulated drugs. "Psychoactive drug" means something that alters the function of the nervous system/brain. Yet would you accept regulation on caffeine or other substances just because they alter the mind?

And caffeine is perfectly fine for children, eh? The "What about the children?" argument again has its roots in the reefer madness scares. We need to completely destroy any traces of this reefer madness response.

It isn't an issue of something being appropriate for children.....there are many things that are appropriate for children that are completely unregulated (not just other legal unregulated drugs). Why don't people go crazy towards those things? And using the example of caffeine, parents don't care as much when it comes to their kids using caffeine but when it comes to cannabis the reefer madness irrationality takes hold. I'm not saying cannabis or any psychoactive should be used by kids, but caffeine would be just as bad if not worse for kids than cannabis.

Finally, why make the legal age at 21 instead of 18? Cannabis is worse than tobacco and equal to alcohol? And 18-20 year olds can't handle cannabis? Sounds more like equating cannabis to alcohol once more.

Alcohol is one of the most intoxicating drugs there is. Cannabis doesn't necessarily make people irresponsible........cannabis intoxication is nothing like alcohol intoxication. Cannabis users don't do the same irresponsible stuff as drunks do. They are nothing alike.

That isn't to say people never do irresponsible things on cannabis.......then again just as much % of the people do irresponsible things while in normal consciousness. There is no evidence to show that cannabis increases the rate or irresponsible behavior unless it is coming from some government or anti-drug group who don't speak the truth about cannabis (the same people who might claim irresponsible behavior from these sites will also tell you that cannabis takes away motivation, even though many users report the opposite).

Also, why is using cannabis before, during, and after school or work irresponsible? Since cannabis more often makes reality and what tasks you do more interesting, who is to say that it doesn't help people in school or work? And what about taking caffeine before, during, or after school? I don't see anything wrong with either because caffeine does help people work......but who says cannabis doesn't?

From my own experience, something that can be as boring as mathematics can become far more interesting while on cannabis.

Caffeine isn't a intoxicant? What caffeine have you been using? Caffeine is definitely an intoxicant in full dosages.......take at least 200 mgs (2 cups of well-caffeinated coffee) of caffeine and you will be intoxicated. 400 mgs+ will make you really intoxicated like mini-speed.

Stimulants aren't intoxicants? Cocaine and amphetamines don't alter your mind? Perhaps caffeine, cocaine, and meth provide some mental agility but that doesn't mean they aren't intoxicating just because they are stimulants. Again, what exactly do you mean by "intoxicant"? Mind alteration or loss of sense?

In any case who says the cannabis "high" prevents people from getting what they need done? Many people would disagree here and many people (such as myself) actually see it is as a help to what they need to get done. Many civilizations such as in India have workers who used cannabis to stimulate themselves while working......who is to say it prevents people from getting things done?

Of course it does also depend on the individual.......it may make some few people dysfunctional. That doesn't mean it makes most people dysfunctional.

I don't think cannabis (or any psychoactive) is appropriate for kids either......though I wouldn't call cannabis a powerful drug. Whether it is powerful is subjective.

Caffeine doesn't just give an energy boost.....it too alters your consciousness. Is cannabis more powerful than caffeine? Well I have to say that it definitely can be as mind altering as cannabis at high enough doses but in a different way. Whether this different way can be considered powerful or not doesn't ever seemed to be discussed......mainly because most people don't take caffeine that seriously.

Like I stated before, caffeine can alter your consciousness to the point where you feel high, it doesn't just raise energy.

Buzzby

Well, you could point that out, if you don't mind being laughed at. Everyone but you knows that marijuana is a powerful, consciousness altering substance. It's not illegal because it's physically harmful. It's illegal, ostensibly, because of the way it acts on people's minds and behavior.

Rehab isn't necessarily about physical addiction. It can be for psychological addiction. There are rehab programs for gambling addiction and sex addiction. There are rehab programs for nicotine. They're called "smoking cessation clinics". There are no rehab clinics for caffeine because no one considers it a drug of abuse.

Most people just get stoned. People feel "heightened" on alcohol, too. How many times have you been regaled with the "brilliant" ideas of someone who's had a bit too much to drink?

An "intoxicant" is a psychoactive drug that interferes with the user's ability to process information. Caffeine and nicotine, except in massive overdose, don't qualify.

I get the feeling that you're being disingenuous. Caffeine is not an intoxicant. People don't want their children using cannabis for the same reason they don't want them getting drunk.

Tobacco might kill you eventually, but intoxicants promote irresponsible behavior. Adolescents are prone to irresponsible behavior without adding intoxicants to the equation. I don't really care if the age limit is 18 or 21, as long as we don't have 11-year-old pot heads dropping out of the fifth grade.

Alcohol doesn't necessarily make people irresponsible either. What's your point?

Different drugs induce different kinds of intoxication. So what? If a kid is drunk in school or stoned in school, either way he won't be able to get the most out of his education. For most people, cannabis interferes with short term memory. That's not what you want if you expect to be able to learn new material.

You're right. Stoners do different irresponsible stuff.

Any high school teacher will tell you about the level of irresponsible behavior coming from people who get stoned for school and those who come sober.

Most people don't remember things as well when they're stoned. Going to school is all about learning, i.e. laying down new memories.

Teachers. I know that there are some students who claim it helps them, but they are the exception, not the rule. Most kids who get stoned and go to school are simply not paying attention. Cannabis is great for mindless repetitive tasks, like digging ditches or flipping burgers. For the vast majority of people, it's not good for learning.

Caffeine increases alertness and therefore helps with learning. Teachers (including my daughter) say cannabis doesn't help learning - or, at least, most of the stoners are not paying attention in class.

Only in massive overdose. In normal doses it just raises energy and alertness.

Caffeine has never done anything to me other than stimulate alertness. Stimulation is not the same as intoxication.

I don't think you help the legalization movement by telling people stuff that they can observe to be patently untrue. If you insist that stoned people are just as functional as sober people, that is the last thing you say to which your audience will pay serious attention.

K0TT0NM0UTHK!NG

You have to take small steps, you cant just try to get marijuana completely unregulated and legalized all at once. Step by step, first, you get it legalized, then work on the regulations. If you were to try to get it legalized, and unregulated all in one shot, there would be NO hope to get it legalized.

Thats just my view on it though, im sure some of you disagree though.

ITG

To answer your question of what is meant by an intoxicant...

Intoxicant: something that intoxicates, esp. and alcoholic beverage or certain drugs

To be a bit more helpful...

Intoxicate: To bring about any series of progressively deteriorating states ranging from exhilaration to stupefaction.

(Definitions courtesy of Webster's II New College Dictionary, published 1999... cut me a break... it's a perfectly good dictionary, why should I drop the cash on a newer one?)

I don't know about you, but there are certain things I wouldn't do when I'm really, really blazed. Like driving. Now, I don't personally know anyone who's crashed a car high. And I don't even know if it's a statistically significant difference from sober people. But, I can observe that when I'm high as fuck, my motor skills are diminished and I usually have a shorter attention span. Paying attention to the road and being able to competently control your vehicle are integral parts of driving. Therefore I can conclude that it would be a bad idea for me to drive, because even if statistically it shouldn't make a difference, it's still a stupid risk to take (that's ignoring legal penalties), because just once is all that matters to me.

This is a skill that I have that I like to call "logic." Unfortunately, it seems like less and less people are capable of using this skill even when they are sober these days. So there is certainly a chance that people will try to drive when they are in no condition to if they do not stop to think about it. As a person ages and matures, they are (in theory) more likely to do this (I personally think that a lot of people AREN'T learning this as they grow up, but most of the people I know are in college. There's still time, though I doubt before they are 21).

Marijuana can significantly alter your perceptions and your state of being in a variety of ways, and furthermore, the way it affects a single person can vary depending on the strain they smoke, the environment when they smoke it, and how they are feeling that day. So it's not exactly the most predictable of drugs.

Caffeine is very, very different from marijuana. It does not alter perception (unless there's some point of consumption that I'm not aware of that does, and if there is, than I'm pretty sure that it's well beyond what a person would drink in a day). Furthermore, it doesn't even match the definition of an intoxicant, because it does not introduce a progressive series of states, unless you count the come down.

Suppose there was a ten year old kid, and it was okay for him to smoke marijuana- after all, it's okay for ten year olds to drink caffeine- and he had a panic attack. Full grown adults can have problems coping with panic attacks. I can't imagine how a little kid would handle it. You say that's "reefer madness"? I say it's common sense. You wouldn't want a ten year old kid in a situation like that whatever the cause.

I personally think that there should definitely be regulation on marijuana. I think that people should be at the very least 16 before they try it, and I still think it's unwise for them to do it that young, its just that 16 is the age at which I would not give them shit about it.

The bottom line is that marijuana DOES have at least potential effects that can be temporarily physically (decrease in motor skills), mentally (decreased attention span), and/or socially dangerous (relaxation of inhibitions, such as not worrying as much about saying stupid shit). In a perfect world, it wouldn't have to be regulated because everyone would understand this and teach their children properly, and the children would see the wisdom of that. We do not live in a perfect world, unfortunately, and there are a lot of people who do very dumb things. In my mind, regulation of marijuana is kind of like the "Caution: Contents Hot" on a cup of coffee- it should be obvious and completely unnecessary, but for some reason, it isn't.

__________________

It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul.

Lost_Pines_Deadhead

I gotta agree. Small steps to get it legalized, then fine-tune the laws once we are protected from being jailed for possession. Legalization IS possible, but unregulated is something I don't think any of us, even the youngest people on this board, will likely see in our lifetimes.

Silverbackman

Cocaine is a stimulant too, Buzzby. Yet are you going to say that it is fine for kids just because it mainly stimulates?

And when I use the term intoxication I mean any alteration in consciousness, not something that will necessarily impair you. Caffeine, cocaine, and methamphetmine may not alter a person's consciousness to the point where they can't drive (like with alcohol, benzos, and opiates) but they still do alter your consciousness enough for it to be considered intoxication. And I'm not just talking in overdose amounts......even in normal 200 mg. caffeinated, or one line of coke.

As for cannabis producing stupid behavior......I strongly disagree. And it also depends a lot on strain.......a heady sativa is great for school. It makes school more interesting and in classes with a lot of thinking (history and science), philosophizing, and artistic development......a good sativa can definitely improve performance, especially in in dismotivated kids. Of course indicas can do the opposite mainly because they make people sleepier and more hungrier.

Cannabis may even grow brain cells which is good for learning, while alcohol kills brain cells;

Marijuana might cause new cell growth in the brain - health - 13 October 2005 - New Scientist

And when I say marijuana in schools, I'm talking about individuals over 16 or in college. I'm not suggesting that any drug is good for anyone too young .

Jake

There's a whole other slant you can get if you're into the comparison of alcohol and cannabis. It's the approach that SAFER, from Colorado, took with great success:

Cannabis is safer than alcohol. This is not the reason to legalize however, because it leaves many with the feeling of "another demon is available." However, people should have the freedom to choose the safer recreational drug.

That's for you, in your experience. Sativas would be a bad idea for certain kids, the kinds that already have prblems paying attention.

The art of politics is getting the most amount of people possible to take the position that you want. Saying that cannabis is just "as bad" as alcohol, and maybe even safer (even though we know that cannabis IS much safer), and the users should be treated as such is an agreeable stance to take on the subject. Politicians who take this stance fall under less scrutiny than the politician who says that the entire war against cannabis was based on lies and full legalization needs to be implemented right away. Making cannabis a "safe" subject to discuss is a very important step to creating an increasing dialogue....and a good honest dialogue could only lead to legalization.

__________________

Silverbackman

I agree that we should take baby steps so that the religious right will listen (if they ever really will) but I think once cannabis becomes less taboo to talk about, more needs to be said that cannabis is very mild and was only made to look like alcohol and harder drugs by the government and corporations.

At least Safer Colorado said it was safer than alcohol instead of comparing the two as equal, although they still supported the 21 legal age.