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Ravendio · 04-26-2008, 02:26 AM

without trying to upset phuzz for possibly asking some things he may have said; i wanted to see how my treatment by the police is even possible.
I was pulled over while i and my passenger were smoking a tobacco cigarette. i drive '88 Porsche 944. it's small and filled with smoke fast. when asked to see my D.L. i found i didn't have one. i was on my way to pick up pizza a 1/4 mile from my home. so i showed him insurance and gave him my name. i have had 2 speeding in Tennessee and one no ins. no tags, 6 years ago. CLEAN military record numerous awards for actions under combat in Iraq. i have been out about 10 months now. So he knows i have a valid D.L. when gets back. he asks me to step out behind the vehicle. so i do. he pats me. there is money in my back pocket. he says is that papers??? i say, shouldn't be. he pulls out the money i used to pay for the pizza about 15mins earlier. he says, Wow that's a lot. it was 3 20's and 5 ones. i say, not really, i am waiter and don't use a bank, so i keep my money with me. so he asks me if i have any bombs , guns, or chemicals in my car.!? i say, no. he starts to walk to the passengers side of the car, on his way i say. Sir, for the record i don't consent to a search of my vehicle without a search warrant. he says, Don't worry i won't tear anything up or anything. i say nothing else, so that he won't be able to say that he inferred consent from any of my statements. he goes to the window and i can't hear anything for a while. I see the passenger get out of the vehicle.another car has pulled up now making 3 officers, 2 cars. i am unsure whether the officer opened the door or the passenger did.as he pats him down another car pulls up (5 cops and 3 cars) and in his back pocket finds a zip lock with 2.3 grams in it. the passenger upon noticing about throws up. i and he both know he didn't know he had it on him. so he tells the officer that it is his and i didn't know he had it on him. they take him way off to the side. so i watch them for a minute until i notice that 2 cops are either side of my car. they open the doors and start searching, taking the keys and unlocks my glove compartment etc... i still haven't said anything. they get out and 1 more gets in and searches it all over again. still finds nothing. i wasn't hiding anything i just don't think anyone has the right to get in and try to see if i have something in my car. it's my car. so they walk the passenger to the back of the car with me. and ask me, Would you mind following us to the police department? i say, Yes, why am "I" going to the police department. he says, to bring "him" (nodding to my passenger). i say. Ok, I'll bring him there. We both get back in my car and follow the cop. while being boxed in by the two behind me. they all go to the station with us. when we get there i am parked in front of the police station still boxed. i ask out of the window, is it ok to park here??? the officer says, yep, that's fine. then says, Hey y'all follow us inside. inside they bring us to a room with a wooden bench and a one way mirror. they ask for the passenger first. about 15 mins later they come back with him and ask for me. i follow into a conference room with 2 detectives and 1 rookie officer. i take a seat at one side and they sit on the other. they put the bag of hooch on table and ask me, What can you tell us about this. i say, What do you want me to say about it? he asks, where did it come from. I say, (name excluded)'s back pocket. he says, well your responsible for anything in your vehicle. i say, i also saw 3 of the on scene cops searching my vehicle after i said that i do not give consent to search my vehicle without a present search warrant. he gets angry and red faced immediately and starts yelling, You think you can tell us how to do our job, i been doing this for 20 years. your both going down for this now. as if WE weren't before. the other detective started yelling at this point and my ears, being damaged from iraq, couldn't sort out any more yelling. the first detective get's up and says, follow me. I get up and am about 3 meters from him while walking and no more than 4 steps later the second detective rushes from his seat over to me and grabs my arm and pulls me back a little. He yells, Hey don't you walk up on him like that. I say, Hey, he said to follow him and i am no where near him, you get your hand off me. he let's and yells, you better watch yourself. we walk back to the holding area and are cuffed. a few minutes later i am approached all hush, hush by the 2 detective trying to get me to give up three felons in exchange they will drop the charges. i word game it a little to protect possibly innocent people. they keeping asking me to hush, and i am reduced to whisper that i almost can't hear. they didn't want anyone even in the department to hear. so without giving anything to them, they send me back to waiting. after i get to jail my wife with one of our friends goes up to station to get the car back. she goes up to a cop outside by the car and says, i think you arrested my husband. he says what's his name? she says it. he says, yep we arrested him. What are you to him? she says again, he's my husband, why did he get arrested? he says, he had marijuana on him. (as though it were in my pocket) she asked, can i take the car home? he says, they have tow truck on the way and they HAVE to tow it. our friend gets out, also female, and goes up to my wife. she notices the cop as a familiar face from the store she works at. she says, hey do i know you??? he says, ya, you work at (name excluded). he says into his radio, cancel that call. turns back to my wife and friend and says, can you drive it. my wife says, no i can't drive stick. our friend says, well (name excluded) can. meaning another friend of ours. he says, i'll wait with the car then. they go get my friend and come back and drive my car home. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy my car wasn't impounded, but these procedures are all assed up, and i know this is not ok. was just trying to get an idea of what i am dealing with. i don't expect legal advise but i feel more than violated of my rights. I'm sorry phuzz if i have asked some of those Q's you have tried to answer in a thread to keep from repeating yourself.

Andrew87 · 04-26-2008, 03:44 AM

Wow, I don't usually get bad headaches, but this post just gave me one. Paragraphs are your friend.

Give me a few minutes to dissect this long-winded rant and I'll see if I can be of any help.

Andrew87 · 04-26-2008, 03:50 AM

Quote:

So he knows i have a valid D.L. when gets back. he asks me to step out behind the vehicle. so i do. he pats me.

Terry search. Legal so far..

Quote:

he starts to walk to the passengers side of the car, on his way i say. Sir, for the record i don't consent to a search of my vehicle without a search warrant. he says, Don't worry i won't tear anything up or anything. i say nothing else, so that he won't be able to say that he inferred consent from any of my statements.

Police are allowed to check areas of a vehicle which you have immediate access to during the course of a Terry pat.

Quote:

he goes to the window and i can't hear anything for a while. I see the passenger get out of the vehicle.another car has pulled up now making 3 officers, 2 cars. i am unsure whether the officer opened the door or the passenger did.as he pats him down another car pulls up (5 cops and 3 cars) and in his back pocket finds a zip lock with 2.3 grams in it.

This is questionable. It's possible an attorney could have this surpressed (provided there was no reason for the officer to believe you may have been in possession of drugs; i.e. smell, etc.), but it's impossible for me to say for sure not knowing the specifics of the case.

Quote:

the passenger upon noticing about throws up. i and he both know he didn't know he had it on him. so he tells the officer that it is his and i didn't know he had it on him. they take him way off to the side. so i watch them for a minute until i notice that 2 cops are either side of my car. they open the doors and start searching, taking the keys and unlocks my glove compartment etc... i still haven't said anything. they get out and 1 more gets in and searches it all over again. still finds nothing. i wasn't hiding anything i just don't think anyone has the right to get in and try to see if i have something in my car. it's my car. so they walk the passenger to the back of the car with me. and ask me, Would you mind following us to the police department? i say, Yes, why am "I" going to the police department. he says, to bring "him" (nodding to my passenger). i say. Ok, I'll bring him there.

At the point they were going in your glovebox, they had already found contraband on your passenger, which means they can legally search every inch of the car that they want to.

I'm very surprised they didn't cuff you both right then and there, let alone allow you to drive yourself to the station.

Quote:

he asks, where did it come from. I say, (name excluded)'s back pocket. he says, well your responsible for anything in your vehicle.

And he's absolutely correct.

Quote:

i say, i also saw 3 of the on scene cops searching my vehicle after i said that i do not give consent to search my vehicle without a present search warrant. he gets angry and red faced immediately and starts yelling

Any cop will get pissed when some kid tries to ignorantly play TV lawyer with them, especially if you are wrong, as you were in this case.

Up until this point, nothing you wrote that the cops did is illegal (with the possible exception of going in your friend's pocket for the weed, based on what you described of the situation - but that's for a judge to decide).

Quote:

I say, Hey, he said to follow him and i am no where near him, you get your hand off me.

That was bold...

Here's how it works with the police: Treat them with respect, and more often than not, you'll get respect. Be blatantly rude and insulting to them, and more often than not they will go out of their way to make sure you have a bad experience.

Darkflan · 04-26-2008, 03:56 AM

Assholes. Sorry , Buts thats all I can Say. Maybe they had some reports about someone else more dangerous in the area? The whole Chemical thing and bomb thing has me confused.

So If I understand correctly all the charges were dropped?

phuzz01 · 04-26-2008, 04:38 AM

Police officers have a right to order the driver and/or the passenger out of a vehicle. They can also perform a pat frisk without your consent if they have reasonable suspicion that the person they are speaking with may be armed. So, that gets us to the point where they find the marijuana in your friend's back pocket.

Once they find that, they have probable cause to believe that there are drugs in the vehicle. Under the federal automobile exception (Carroll v US), they can search your car without a warrant AND without your consent.

Finally, most states have a law against owning or controlling any place (whether a residence, vehicle, etc.) where illegal drugs are located. That means that the person driving the car can get charged for any drugs in the vehicle, whether they belong to him or not.

Andrew87 · 04-26-2008, 06:10 AM

Phuzz, I was under the impression that since something like a bag of weed could not reasonably be considered a weapon, it should not have been taken out and would not be admissable as evidence (you went over this briefly in another thread - about a pipe, how because it was a hard object it was coming out of the person's pocket regardless). It'd be great if you could elaborate a little bit on this standard, or cite any case law (other than Terry/Ohio, of course).

**troublemaker_42** · 04-26-2008, 12:54 PM

Actually, if the officer can determine the object is contraband, it CAN be removed from the pocket, and iot can be used against the person.

vvicked0471 · 04-26-2008, 02:17 PM

What did you get pulled over for??

phuzz01 · 04-26-2008, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew87

Phuzz, I was under the impression that since something like a bag of weed could not reasonably be considered a weapon, it should not have been taken out and would not be admissable as evidence

If the object is not a weapon, the officer can only pull it out only if it is "immediately recognizable" as contraband. There is a lot of argument about whether a plastic baggie of some unknown substance is "immediately recognizable" as contraband. The defense will argue that it could be anything in that bag, while the prosecution will argue that an officer with sufficient training and experience knows a bag of dope when he feels one. It could go either way, and will heavily depend on the specific circumstances (time of day, location, other factors, statements by the defendant, experience of the officer, etc.).

In any case, if an officer does a pat down and feels a plastic baggie in the pocket, there are other ways to get it out than just grabbing it under the Terry search. I usually pat it and ask "what is that?" A lot of times the person will stammer and say "uhh, I don't know" or "it's not mine" or "I'm not sure, these aren't my pants" (no joke, that really happens). In my opinion, those statements added to the plastic bag in their pocket is enough for probable cause to remove it, in which case the Terry standard does not apply. Before I even start a Terry pat, I usually ask people if they would mind emptying their pockets, or if they would mind if I search their pockets. If they say yes, then that is consent for a full search and the Terry standard does not apply. If they say no, I can still do the more limted Terry pat.

Ravendio · 04-26-2008, 06:39 PM

it was for a tail light being out, that i was pulled over for. and the cop that pulled me over is like a 10 month rookie

04-26-2008, 02:26 AM	#1
Ravendio New Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 6 Grams: 382.50 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	how is this allowed? without trying to upset phuzz for possibly asking some things he may have said; i wanted to see how my treatment by the police is even possible. I was pulled over while i and my passenger were smoking a tobacco cigarette. i drive '88 Porsche 944. it's small and filled with smoke fast. when asked to see my D.L. i found i didn't have one. i was on my way to pick up pizza a 1/4 mile from my home. so i showed him insurance and gave him my name. i have had 2 speeding in Tennessee and one no ins. no tags, 6 years ago. CLEAN military record numerous awards for actions under combat in Iraq. i have been out about 10 months now. So he knows i have a valid D.L. when gets back. he asks me to step out behind the vehicle. so i do. he pats me. there is money in my back pocket. he says is that papers??? i say, shouldn't be. he pulls out the money i used to pay for the pizza about 15mins earlier. he says, Wow that's a lot. it was 3 20's and 5 ones. i say, not really, i am waiter and don't use a bank, so i keep my money with me. so he asks me if i have any bombs , guns, or chemicals in my car.!? i say, no. he starts to walk to the passengers side of the car, on his way i say. Sir, for the record i don't consent to a search of my vehicle without a search warrant. he says, Don't worry i won't tear anything up or anything. i say nothing else, so that he won't be able to say that he inferred consent from any of my statements. he goes to the window and i can't hear anything for a while. I see the passenger get out of the vehicle.another car has pulled up now making 3 officers, 2 cars. i am unsure whether the officer opened the door or the passenger did.as he pats him down another car pulls up (5 cops and 3 cars) and in his back pocket finds a zip lock with 2.3 grams in it. the passenger upon noticing about throws up. i and he both know he didn't know he had it on him. so he tells the officer that it is his and i didn't know he had it on him. they take him way off to the side. so i watch them for a minute until i notice that 2 cops are either side of my car. they open the doors and start searching, taking the keys and unlocks my glove compartment etc... i still haven't said anything. they get out and 1 more gets in and searches it all over again. still finds nothing. i wasn't hiding anything i just don't think anyone has the right to get in and try to see if i have something in my car. it's my car. so they walk the passenger to the back of the car with me. and ask me, Would you mind following us to the police department? i say, Yes, why am "I" going to the police department. he says, to bring "him" (nodding to my passenger). i say. Ok, I'll bring him there. We both get back in my car and follow the cop. while being boxed in by the two behind me. they all go to the station with us. when we get there i am parked in front of the police station still boxed. i ask out of the window, is it ok to park here??? the officer says, yep, that's fine. then says, Hey y'all follow us inside. inside they bring us to a room with a wooden bench and a one way mirror. they ask for the passenger first. about 15 mins later they come back with him and ask for me. i follow into a conference room with 2 detectives and 1 rookie officer. i take a seat at one side and they sit on the other. they put the bag of hooch on table and ask me, What can you tell us about this. i say, What do you want me to say about it? he asks, where did it come from. I say, (name excluded)'s back pocket. he says, well your responsible for anything in your vehicle. i say, i also saw 3 of the on scene cops searching my vehicle after i said that i do not give consent to search my vehicle without a present search warrant. he gets angry and red faced immediately and starts yelling, You think you can tell us how to do our job, i been doing this for 20 years. your both going down for this now. as if WE weren't before. the other detective started yelling at this point and my ears, being damaged from iraq, couldn't sort out any more yelling. the first detective get's up and says, follow me. I get up and am about 3 meters from him while walking and no more than 4 steps later the second detective rushes from his seat over to me and grabs my arm and pulls me back a little. He yells, Hey don't you walk up on him like that. I say, Hey, he said to follow him and i am no where near him, you get your hand off me. he let's and yells, you better watch yourself. we walk back to the holding area and are cuffed. a few minutes later i am approached all hush, hush by the 2 detective trying to get me to give up three felons in exchange they will drop the charges. i word game it a little to protect possibly innocent people. they keeping asking me to hush, and i am reduced to whisper that i almost can't hear. they didn't want anyone even in the department to hear. so without giving anything to them, they send me back to waiting. after i get to jail my wife with one of our friends goes up to station to get the car back. she goes up to a cop outside by the car and says, i think you arrested my husband. he says what's his name? she says it. he says, yep we arrested him. What are you to him? she says again, he's my husband, why did he get arrested? he says, he had marijuana on him. (as though it were in my pocket) she asked, can i take the car home? he says, they have tow truck on the way and they HAVE to tow it. our friend gets out, also female, and goes up to my wife. she notices the cop as a familiar face from the store she works at. she says, hey do i know you??? he says, ya, you work at (name excluded). he says into his radio, cancel that call. turns back to my wife and friend and says, can you drive it. my wife says, no i can't drive stick. our friend says, well (name excluded) can. meaning another friend of ours. he says, i'll wait with the car then. they go get my friend and come back and drive my car home. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy my car wasn't impounded, but these procedures are all assed up, and i know this is not ok. was just trying to get an idea of what i am dealing with. i don't expect legal advise but i feel more than violated of my rights. I'm sorry phuzz if i have asked some of those Q's you have tried to answer in a thread to keep from repeating yourself.

04-26-2008, 03:44 AM	#2
Andrew87 Sr. Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 424 Grams: 5,798.60 Groans: 42 Groaned at 17 Times in 17 Posts Thanks: 515 Thanked 156 Times in 113 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Wow, I don't usually get bad headaches, but this post just gave me one. Paragraphs are your friend. Give me a few minutes to dissect this long-winded rant and I'll see if I can be of any help. __________________ "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." -- Ron Paul "One person's 'schizophrenia' is another's revelation." -- Peter Breggin, M.D.

04-26-2008, 03:56 AM	#4
Darkflan Sr. Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 515 Grams: 3,801.39 Groans: 4 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post Thanks: 86 Thanked 125 Times in 88 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: -1.000%	Assholes. Sorry , Buts thats all I can Say. Maybe they had some reports about someone else more dangerous in the area? The whole Chemical thing and bomb thing has me confused. So If I understand correctly all the charges were dropped? __________________ "They say we fund al-aquada sounds like the governments jealous lets get the enemy stoned bring our ninjas home to hell with Christian zealots " -mc chris

04-26-2008, 12:54 PM	#7
troublemaker_42 May be habit forming Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10,439 Grams: 13,306.37 Groans: 113 Groaned at 21 Times in 20 Posts Thanks: 617 Thanked 1,235 Times in 673 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Actually, if the officer can determine the object is contraband, it CAN be removed from the pocket, and iot can be used against the person. __________________ Remember you're a wreck, an accident forget the freak, you're just nature Keep the gun oiled and the temple clean shit, snort and blaspheme Let the heads cool and the engine run Because in the end, everything we do is just everything we've done..."Omega" by StoneSour www.sportsmenforObama.org

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04-26-2008, 04:38 AM	#5
phuzz01 Sr. Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 789 Grams: 4,348.31 Groans: 6 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 15 Thanked 196 Times in 77 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Police officers have a right to order the driver and/or the passenger out of a vehicle. They can also perform a pat frisk without your consent if they have reasonable suspicion that the person they are speaking with may be armed. So, that gets us to the point where they find the marijuana in your friend's back pocket. Once they find that, they have probable cause to believe that there are drugs in the vehicle. Under the federal automobile exception (Carroll v US), they can search your car without a warrant AND without your consent. Finally, most states have a law against owning or controlling any place (whether a residence, vehicle, etc.) where illegal drugs are located. That means that the person driving the car can get charged for any drugs in the vehicle, whether they belong to him or not.

04-26-2008, 06:10 AM	#6
Andrew87 Sr. Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 424 Grams: 5,798.60 Groans: 42 Groaned at 17 Times in 17 Posts Thanks: 515 Thanked 156 Times in 113 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Phuzz, I was under the impression that since something like a bag of weed could not reasonably be considered a weapon, it should not have been taken out and would not be admissable as evidence (you went over this briefly in another thread - about a pipe, how because it was a hard object it was coming out of the person's pocket regardless). It'd be great if you could elaborate a little bit on this standard, or cite any case law (other than Terry/Ohio, of course).

04-26-2008, 02:17 PM	#8
vvicked0471 New Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 79 Grams: 1,797.30 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 18 Thanked 12 Times in 11 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	What did you get pulled over for??

04-26-2008, 06:39 PM	#10
Ravendio New Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 6 Grams: 382.50 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	it was for a tail light being out, that i was pulled over for. and the cop that pulled me over is like a 10 month rookie

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