dedbr

No sir,you make my point for me.You said that we should get the med.herb to the patients that need it.Lets hypothetically do that.50 patients at an ounce a week for one month.12.5 lbs. per month.Twelve lbs. per month.where is the 'medicine" coming from?
A caregiver, like Kubby,grows for say,100 people a month.25 lbs.per month.In order to supply these patients someone has to {grow,buy, sell,import}come up with 25 lbs. per month.He is way over the limit,and the police are at his door,wanting to know why he's having 100 different people at his door every month.
Your right,herb is a controlled substance.It shouldn't be.Thats my argument,plain and simple.I won't argue the point or the law.Theres no sense in it,because the law is always right,even when their wrong.
Now we come to acceptable amount.No ones business.No one bothers to ask if a tobacco "provider "has too much on hand.If herb was legal,then once again we solve this problem.
A strategic win for the legalization zealots?Thanks for grouping me,but no thanks.
A strategic win?No Greenman,that would be "the" win.
When you make herb into medicine,then you put it in the same category as such.My herb is not medicine.A lot of people put a lot of work into providing us with the medicine you seek.In the laws eyes and the establishments eyes,with their limits,you could not begin to supply the amount of herb you need to to cure the sick.
Thats the bottom line to me.Just the simple amounts involded would make their limits a joke.
Thanks for listening,
The Dead bear

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Greenman

Why can't all these patients grow their own? Why can't the limits specify X plants and X pounds? I am not slighting the importance of caregivers, however distribution of marijuana is illegal, even to pepole who are dying, supreme court just said so. I don't like it for the same reasons you don't. But for right now, that is the cards as they lay on the table. Now we can rail against the injustices of the system, which we should do, but if railing against the system actually did anything, we wouldn't be in this position in the first place.

Do I want the drug war to end? The sooner the better. But do I think that my personal right to enjoy marijuana is somehow more important than another persons right to use their medicine to keep them alive? Apsolutly not. I am interested in getting people the help they need as soon as possible. And if we have to set limits on possession to get the bills passed, then as long as they are reasonable, so be it.

I think that if marijuana was schedueled as the science says it should be schedueled, we would all by buying packs of Malboro Greens at the stop and go. And if ya want to get 6 cartons, you get 6 cartons. But the road from here to there is still a long road. There are a lot of people with Cancer and AIDS, and a host of other debilitating illnesses that can get help, and in some cases the most help from marijuana. And with the current climate the way it is, we need to get them the help they need as quickly as possible. The way we do that is by not fighting any unnessicary battles along the way.

Once medical marijuana is full under way, it has great potential for knocking the winds right out of the governments arguments by itself. And with that victory under our belt, then we close in on Legalization.

I am not saying outright Legalization shouldn't be a priority, because it should. We should continue to hammer on the government on that front, and hammer hard. And I will agree that medical marijuana is an argument for legalization, I also acknowledge that we are capable of fighting these two battles simotaniously. People, even the hardest drug war zealots, have had people close to them die or become crippled tragically to an illness that marijuana can treat. Its the common thread that ties everyone to the marijuana cause, even more so than the people arrested every year. Some may not see the connection immediatly, but as soon as they do, they will understand the need.

I do not think there are many legalization zealots on marijuana.com. They don't tend to last to long, because fanatical behavior for any cause is a very dangerous thing. Life is not black and white, but many millions of shades of gray. But the movement has their zealots, just like the Anti-Drug movement has theirs. And they do their respective sides a disservice because they are unwilling to listen to the concerns and objections of others, and make concessions for the greater good.

Peace

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KWhite

I have been waaay too busy over in c.t.
You guys have fallen into the debating trap...saying tzhe same thing
lets see.
you all agree med patients shouldf have it NOW!. because to them it is life and death.
Right?
you all agree we want legalization in full.
Am I still right?
you are debating methods.
Now, looking at the perversity of politicians, I have to agree in part with Harleymana, you take a win, capitalize on it, and than go for more.
This is essentially what the G-man is saying Ded.
Both of you agree the current situation is intolerable.
Stop me anywhere I hit a wrong spot please.
Dedbr, you say skip the med pot issue, and go balls to the walls for legalization.
I have got to disagree.
2 reasons
1. the sisters and brothers needing pot, need our help, I would love to be able to buy it from a doc, a pharmacy whatever when I am dragging my right leg and biting my teeth topgether.."Naw..it don't hurt kids..go on I will catch up" and this will eventually win us the public.
becazuse health care and prescription meds are always expensive, and marijuana often works better.
once we get med pot accpted, hell even voted for, then we can say.
"Hmm don't look like the glaucoma patients are lkilling too many folks with axes, and they all have jobs...lets legalize"
reality is what we have to work within.
I admit, the Greenman and I do not often disagree, but once again, I have to side with him.
personally, I beluieve when it breaks, its gonna break all the way.
but if I am wrong...
lets get the sick their meds bro.
Then we can kick politician butt at leaisure.
Kelly

dedbr

Ok,you're getting closer.But listen---

If they grow their own,how long will it take to get their first crop in?Thats right,there will be some deaths before we get that first crop in,but lets make sure that we stay under those limits that are imposed by the anti's.Don't want anyone to have too much "medicine".
Now,lets write off the real sick ones,because they won't be able to get out of the bed to tend their gardens,and also the ones with aids wasting syndrome,they will be too weak to hold a water can to feed their plants,more or less themselves.
Now that we have them out of the way,lets figure out how much we need to grow.If from start to finish it takes three months at 1 ounce a week thats twelve ounces.Three quarters of a pound.Would three quarters of a pound last you three months?Now,baring any unforseen accidents,theft,disease or police raids,how many plants would you need to harvest the pound that you need to last you the next three months before your next crop comes in?Well,I guess I've made my point.
Now you say,if we need to set limits to get the bills passed,then so be it.I don't remember any limits on 215.And who is going to set the limits,them or us?Cause if they are,lets make sure I'm involved,because I have practical knowledge of the amounts that are going to be required.And you know how much that is?A lot more than a poor,sick person is going to want to screw around with when he should be able to purchase as much as he wants to fill his needs.
Greenman,I want the compassionate use act to be carried out.If the herb helps some one to a better quality of life,I'm all for it.But I don't believe in setting a limit on compassion.The antis want to take our sense of compassion and turn it into theirs,which means none.Setting a limit on how much a person can have is ridiculous.
The Oakland club had,I beleive,1700 members.At an ounce a week per person,thats 425 lbs. a month.Uh oh,were just a wee bit over the limit.Well,lets just kick out about 1600 members and tell them that they're on their own.I hope they have a green thumb.They're going to need it.

dedbr

I'm not debating the medical use of herb-I'm talking about limits on possesion,and where the weeds going to come from.

KWhite

But am pragmatic
These people in power, man look how hard we have to push to get ANYTHING!

We gotta take it as it comes.
and build on it.

Greenman

Where are the people going to get the marijuana until the first crops come in? From the streets, where the vast majority of them are getting it currently.

It may not be a perfect solution, but it is a better one than letting them rot with nothing until we get full legalization.

I would assume there would be other people to help them with simple tasks of living until they are stong enough to do it themselves. Much like what happens now adays, with a friend or family member rolling the joint for them and holding it to their mouth to inhale. except the vast majority of Americans are breaking the law by doing so. There is nothing that limits on possession would change about this situation at all. People who are to weak to water their guarden couldn't take a jog down to a buyers co-op to get their medicine any easier.

Limits on possession would not have any effect on accidents or disease, in the event that this would happen, they can return to the streets like the majority of them do now. Theft of a controlled substance is already a seperate crime, and one of the main purposes of establishing reasonable limits is to deter police raids. If a person has a valid medical recommendation, and has less than the established limit for that recommendation, then there is no arrest. The charges will not hold up in court. All the police harrassment of medical marijuana patients is precisely because of a lack of established limits, and confusing legal precedents on what the limits are. Where a crime then becomes the personal interpretation of the law by the individual police officer, who might have a different idea on what he considers enough for medical purposes.

There are also different cultivation methods to tailor your yeild to your needs. Growing pot is not that much different than growing tomatos, unless you want some really good tomatos.

Nothing about limitations will restrict someone from purchasing what they need. Even though the CBC was closed down, they didn't go after the patients who used it. The act of selling marijuana is still illegal, however the patient has a necessity to break the law, where as the dealer does not. The patient would also not be breaking the law because he is legally allowed to be in possession of the marijuana. Not so for the dealer.

I would hope you would be involved. I hope everyone with a medical need gets involved so that we can establish reasonable limitaitons for the law. The only way we are going to know how much is reasonable is if the people themselves tell us.

Again, just because prop 215 does not specify any limitations does not mean that there are no limitations. Court Rulings and other acts from state and federal agencies can place limitations on a law, and do in this case. Statutory law is really meaningless, what counts is how the courts interpret that law.

I agree with you dedbr, really I do agree with you. In an idealic world that is true. But this is not an ideal world. The reality of the situation is that, in order to get the marijuana to the people who need it, in order for the politicians and some of the more sheepish of the public to get behind it. We cannot make it look like a medical patient is really just a glorified marijuana drug lord. If you do not establish limitations, there is going to be someone out there who is going to abuse the law, and make the entire class of patients look like shadey drug pushers selling crack to pre-schoolers, well not exactly. But the fear is out there in peoples minds, we must make the attempt to allay these peoples fears if we are to get anything done at all.

Peace.

dedbr

Thank you ,Greenman."The vast majority of them are getting it off the streets."
I do not want to be thought of as a criminal because of marijuana use.Thats the bottomline.I am not a criminal.Until the herb is fully legal,all of us will be considered criminals who use it or have commerce in it.That to me is the reason that I want full legalization.I want people to stop considering me a criminal and look at me as what I am.A proud citizen of this country who defends her with every breath,but speaks against a wrong whether it is "socially acceptable"or not.Yes,your right,thats not reality,but it Da** sure should be.

Greenman

I have an idea, you keep up your fight on all out legalization, its a good fight. I'll keep up on the medical marijuana side, and between the two of us, we should hash out a break for everyone as soon as its possible. If Legalization wins, then I win. If medical marijuana wins, then you win as well.

Its one of the main reasons why I support med marijuana the way I do. Because people should not be criminals for using a time tested medication. If they must buy it off the streets, then so be it, but they shouldn't be criminals for doing so. Really no one should be criminals for smoking pot. But even less when its a matter of health. One of the hopes of medical marijuana, at least one of my hopes for it, is that it will end the patients need to go to the streets to get a supply of medicine. I guess its a case of something is better than nothing. Instead of the streets being a primary source of marijuana for patients, they will have the oppertunity to get it from a safer channel, with more controle over the strains used and how the plants are grown. They may have to return to the streets to suppliment their supply in the rare event they run out. But they have to do that all the time now. I like the street being a secondary source rather than a primary source, even though I would really like to see it disappear as a source all together. But we are getting there.

As Kwhite said, we both agree on the overall issues, but disagree on the methods to handle those issues. I think the both of us have stated our position amply enough for anyone reading this post will be able to choose a way they want to go. I don't think your way is bad or wrong, just more time consuming. That is your perogative, and lord knows, we do need as many people fighting for outright legalization as we can lay our hands on.

Peace.

dedbr

for listening to me.I wonder sometimes if anyone is.The best case solution for me is the total legalization of the herb.I am on prescription drugs right now,and I am tired of the law or my doctor limiting the amounts that I can have.If we are going to have medical herb then lets forget the limits.I don't want anyone to suffer because they aren't allowed to have enough.Thats the bottom line for me.
By the way,if I'm going to be limited to three plants,they are going to be forty footers that are in continuous bloom.Oh yeah.

Peace
The Dead Bear