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Blunted · 06-27-2007, 07:15 AM

I haven't seen a thread for this yet, so thought I'd start one and see if anyone else has watched this documentary yet. If you haven't, I highly suggest checking it out....

It was very disturbing and showed just how horrible the United States health care system is, for the poor that is. It's was sickening watching how much profits health insurance companies rake in, from denying sick people proper care, or procedures that could be life saving.

There has to be a better way.

I won't get into it much more than that.....don't want to spoil anything. All in all, it was A LOT better than Farenheit 911 so even if you think that sucked ass, or hate Michael Moore, don't let it sway you from not checking this out.

I'd definitely like to hear from anyone from a country WITH free universal health care, and let me know what you guys think. Or anyone from the US with horror stories from medical expenses, etc.....

I know it's not been released yet, but it's on all the major torrent sites, and I'm assuming everyone knows how to use a computer and all that. If not, sorry come back & reply when ya see it

**troublemaker_42** · 06-27-2007, 09:31 AM

I.....just.....can't. It would take MM curing cancer and AIDS in the same day for me to ever begin to respect him. He has made a career out of clever editing, half-truths, and sensationalism. Do I believe we need major health care reform? You bet....but I knew that before MM decided to make this movie. Knowing his reputation for telling only his version of the truth, as opposed to the ACTUAL truth, I simply cannot take anything he is a part of very seriously.

5drive · 06-27-2007, 01:42 PM

Our health care system is not just bad for the poor, but for every American. 'Sicko' is not a political film, it just shows the blood and guts of our sick health care in the US. The facts are there for anyone to see. The movie shows that big pharma and the insurance companies are profiting from illness and death, and people are paid big bucks to deny care and treatment. We're something like #38 in the world in the quality of health care.

TMG · 06-27-2007, 03:42 PM

Guys, just watch the damn thing before you start bitching up a storm.

I honestly didn't think I'd dig it after the 911 one, but i totally did.

This one is less Micheal magic (if u know what I mean), more people talking and telling their horror stories. PLEASE PLEASE just give it a chance.

And TM, he doesnt cure cancer or AIDS but he does get, like, four or five people who were very sick and couldnt afford to pay for their medical treatments help for free. That was one of my favorite parts of the movie.

GIVE IT A DAMN CHANCE. Seriously, we have it downloaded and we can send it (if Blunted knows how to do that cause I have no f'ing clue lol)! It's only one hour out of your life, and you'll be glad even if it does nothing more that make you hate MM more than you did to begin with.

OneHighAlaskan · 06-27-2007, 04:34 PM

I saw it the other day (got it through bittorrent) and I definitely agree that it is a must see. I, at 16, never knew (or cared) that there was so much issues with the American system of providing health care, or lack there of. It was eye-opening and depressing at the same time. In most aspects, we are a decently advanced and developed country, but our health care is very lacking.
It wouldn't be that hard for us to just model a system after the French or Cubans, which would be a major step from where we are now.

Micheal Morre may be slightly biased but the problem is very real.

NachtSorcier · 06-27-2007, 05:02 PM

I understand why people hate Michael Moore. I've seen both Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11, and I'm sure I'll see Sicko at some point too, so my view on him is that while he's hardly going about it the right way, he does bring up some very good points about issues that need to be talked about. If you really think about it, he may not be very honest about it, but he's bringing said issues into the light via controversy; good or bad, controversy makes everyone aware, and hopefully the ones who are willing to do something about it will catch on because of it. In short, Moore's heart is in the right place, but he could make use of some better tactics. He certainly has the courage of his convictions, a trait that could be very useful in the right hands.

I certainly wouldn't call it a horror story, but I still owe the hospital $300 because a doctor looked in my ears and mouth almost two years ago.

***Plainsman1963*** · 06-27-2007, 05:29 PM

It's not a documentary...It's an opinion piece.

And those folks he took with him to Cuba? Sure would have been nice to let them know they needed press credentials to travel legally to that country.

MM remembered to get himself the credentials...He just "forgot" to tell the poor, sick people that to avoid breaking the law, they needed to do that too.

Yeah, I loooooooovvvvveeeeeeee Michael Moore.

TMG · 06-27-2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NachtSorcier

so my view on him is that while he's hardly going about it the right way, he does bring up some very good points about issues that need to be talked about.

Maybe. But at least he's bringin them up. I hate people who sit on the soapbox bitching about MM that he shouldnt be making documentaries, yet they wont get off their butts and go make one themselves.

That's like sitting on the couch bitching at someone because they're not vacuuming your floor correctly. It's like, get off your ass and go vacuum yourself then. You know what I'm saying sort of?

Yeah, your right perhaps he's not going about it the best way but I've learned quite of bit from them, and it's made want to seek out answers to questions I now have. I don't see any other film producers trying to share their opinion on what they think is right or wrong, all most of them care about is making tons of money. I'd rather be fed swomething honest rather then live my life in a big, pink bubble.

If Trekkies can be a documentary, then why can't this????

edit: you cannot say that MM is only in this for the money, for one-know one knows him personally so it'd be impossible to know his TRUE motives, he has said he doesnt care if people dl his movie. Im sticking with what I said.

and plains, would getting in trouble been worse then losing their house due to medical bills? It's kind of a toss up, so it would seem.

NachtSorcier · 06-27-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titts McGhee

Maybe. But at least he's bringin them up. I hate people who sit on the soapbox bitching about MM that he shouldnt be making documentaries, yet they wont get off their butts and go make one themselves.

That's like sitting on the couch bitching at someone because they're not vacuuming your floor correctly. It's like, get off your ass and go vacuum yourself then. You know what I'm saying sort of?

Yeah, your right perhaps he's not going about it the best way but I've learned quite of bit from them, and it's made want to seek out answers to questions I now have. I don't see any other film producers trying to share their opinion on what they think is right or wrong, all most of them care about is making tons of money. I'd rather be fed swomething honest rather then live my life in a big, pink bubble.

I agree. I'm sorry if I implied otherwise, but I simply meant that while his tactics are questionable at best, the issues he brings up are very important and his movies have caused a lot of people to take a closer look at said issues. I agree with a lot of what Moore says, I just think he's using cheap tricks to make his point.

***Plainsman1963*** · 06-27-2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Michael Moore is as conspiratorial as ever. The online leaking of Sicko, his new documentary on the American health care system, was an "inside job," he said. It was an attempt at "ruining the opening weekend's box office" by those with a "vested interest" in seeing the film fail. And that's not all. Government officials, the Fahrenheit 9/11 and Bowling for Columbine director told reporters, are so anxious about his paean to Cuba's health care system that he stashed the master reel in Canada, lest the Bush administration try to seize it.

But the administration needn't worry about Sicko. As with much of his previous work, Moore's latest film is, by turns, touching, naïve and maddeningly mendacious, a clumsy piece of agitprop that will likely have little lasting effect on the health care debate. Moore is right that the American system is sick—on this, there is bipartisan and public consensus. The United States has the highest per capita health care spending in the world, with comparatively disappointing results. But his radical prescriptions, which include a call for a British-style, single-payer system, will likely have little resonance with viewers. Indeed, according to a recent ABC News/Kaiser Family Health study, insured Americans are overwhelmingly (89 percent) satisfied with their own care, while broadly concerned about rising costs of prescription drugs and critical of the care others receive.

Sicko starts off rather well, with an effective montage of health care and bureaucratic nightmares, from insurers slithering out of active policies and denying coverage retroactively (with conditions as insignificant as a previously undisclosed yeast infection used as justification) to the rejection of new applicants for reasons both bizarre and abstruse (like the 6'2", 135 pound applicant turned down for being "too thin"). But as is often the case, Moore quickly overreaches, implying that such horror stories are de rigueur, a uniquely American problem that could only be solved with further government intervention.

Sicko presents us with the case of Doug Noe, whose young daughter Annette was born with an acute hearing disability. When a doctor suggested a pair of cochlear ear implants, Noe's insurance provider, Cigna HealthCare, approved the procedure for only the left ear, arguing that a two ear operation was "experimental." But when Noe alerted Moore to Cigna's intransigence, the company quickly reversed its decision, fearing bad publicity.

Score one for Citizen Moore.

Such heartless penny-pinching, Moore argues, is uniquely American, the logical endpoint of a system that puts profit before people, as the saying goes. But fear not. For according to Sicko, there exists an alternative, modestly utopian alternative. In Europe—specifically France, England and Scandinavia (Moore filmed in Norway, but didn't include it in the film, he told audience members at the Washington, DC premiere, because it was so generous he feared American audience members would think it was pure fiction)—every health care issue is handled by a squadron of munificent bureaucrats.

But, the viewer is left wondering, who will pay for all this generosity? Don't governments too suffer from cash shortfalls and ballooning budget deficits; situations that require corners to be cut, beds to be freed up, the cheapest route taken? What of Moore's implication that, once turned over to the government, things become "free?"

Take the case of four-year-old Elias Dillner. In 2004, Dillner's parents were told by doctors that their son too would benefit from cochlear implants. After being fitted with the first implant, Dillner's insurance provider said the second operation could not be "prioritized." The family would have to wait. "We will do anything," Elias's mother told reporters, "even if it means that we have to take out a loan for the operation." Without insurance, the second procedure would likely cost $40,000.

But Dillner's truculent insurance provider was not Aetna or Kaiser, but the notoriously generous Swedish welfare state, where health care is "free." And because there is no private clinic in Sweden that could perform the operation, Elias will sit in a queue, hoping, in lieu of privatization, for prioritization. Swedish legislator Robert Uitto said that the Dillner case was unfortunate, but "People shouldn't, on principle, be allowed to purchase care in the public system."

Sicko also introduces us to Diane, whose brain tumor operation was initially denied by Horizon BlueCross because it didn't consider her condition "life threatening." She eventually received treatment, but "not without battling the insurance companies," Moore says.

Jack Szmyt found himself in a similar situation. After waiting two months for his initial diagnosis—he too had a brain tumor—Szmyt was told that it would be another month until doctors could start the necessary treatment. Rather than wait in a queue, he borrowed $30,000 from a friend, and flew to a private clinic in Germany. Had he not sought private treatment abroad, his German doctor said, he would likely have died. When contacted by the media, his insurer, again the Swedish government, said it didn't consider the assigned waiting period "unreasonable."

Such examples suggest that Moore's depiction of European-style medicine as an easy panacea for America's problems is rather more complicated than presented. Massive queues and cash shortages have plagued all of the systems profiled—and celebrated—in Sicko. In the case of Cuba, whose system Moore also praises, this includes shortage of basic medical materials and medicine. And the credulous audience member is none the wiser.

One of the systems Sicko suggests as a template for a remodeled American health care is the United Kingdom's National Health Service (NHS). The "first way [the British] decided to pull together after the [Second World War]," Moore says, "was to provide free medical care for everyone."

Viewers are taken to London's Hammersmith Hospital, held up as a shining example of socialized care, where doctors are well-paid and patients well looked after. Moore ambles through the corridors interviewing patients that acclaim the NHS's ‘free care,' and express horror at the barbarism of the American system. Indeed, the facility's "cashier" exists to give money to patients—for travel reimbursements—rather than taking it from them. But as is often the case with Moore's films, the reality is more complex.

In 2005, London's Evening Standard reported that Hammersmith Hospital would slash hundreds of jobs; the hospital, the most debt-ridden in Britain, was hemorrhaging money and desperately needed to cut costs. And while the hospital was "downsizing", Hammersmith's CEO—yes, even the NHS has an executive class—collected a year-end bonus of close to $20,000. Small beer by American standards, but enough to provoke tabloid headlines in Britain.

Much like the American hospitals Moore excoriates, Hammersmith Hospital, the Evening Standard reported, faced pressure from administrators to limit the number of patients treated in order to cut spending. In a country where the government promises to winnow down queues to 18 weeks, this isn't an anomalous problem. A recent BBC documentary accused the NHS of using dangerously high doses of radiation on patients "to save time and money."

After the critical reaction to his previous films, Moore opts for elision over outright falsehood. So when he marvels that a doctor working in the NHS owns an Audi and "million dollar home," it is hardly in his interest to point out, as The Independent did in January, that "soaring salary levels of doctors are worsening the NHS cash crisis." And while bitterly lamenting the U.S. system of "wage slavery"—American students, Moore says, are saddled with debt and, thus, "won't cause [employers] any trouble"—he ignores a recent report from the British Medical Association suggesting that, by their fifth year of medical school, British students "have accumulated an average debt of" $39,000.

It is these sections, where Moore uncritically praises institutions with which many locals have ever-declining levels of faith (only 4% of Britons surveyed think the system "has enough money and the money is spent well"), that will likely alienate his non-ideological foreign fans. It is one thing to nod one's head in agreement with the Bush-bashing Fahrenheit 9/11—likely a mere reinforcement of previously held views for most Europeans—but it is quite another for a Briton to watch Moore tell viewers that English pharmacies don't sell milk and laundry detergent, when there is a Boots—the British version of CVS—just around the corner.

Sicko concludes with Moore speaking in soothing, dulcet tones over mawkish orchestral music. The sotto voce lesson is Rodney King-ish, admonishing Cubans and Americans to just get along, and for the rest of us to take care of our fellow man while, presumably, campaigning for Dennis Kucinich. So after two hours of limp jokes that would make Bruce Vilanch wince and a continent-spanning exploration of socialized medicine, Moore's specific policy prescriptions are impossible to find. Without them, he ends up urging viewers to just let the government run the damn thing.

But as P.J. O'Rourke once commented, if Mike thinks health care is expensive now, just wait until it's free.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/120998.html

06-27-2007, 07:15 AM	#1
Blunted RIP PIMP Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,589 Grams: 812.42 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 133 Thanked 211 Times in 135 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Michael Moore's "Sicko" I haven't seen a thread for this yet, so thought I'd start one and see if anyone else has watched this documentary yet. If you haven't, I highly suggest checking it out.... It was very disturbing and showed just how horrible the United States health care system is, for the poor that is. It's was sickening watching how much profits health insurance companies rake in, from denying sick people proper care, or procedures that could be life saving. There has to be a better way. I won't get into it much more than that.....don't want to spoil anything. All in all, it was A LOT better than Farenheit 911 so even if you think that sucked ass, or hate Michael Moore, don't let it sway you from not checking this out. I'd definitely like to hear from anyone from a country WITH free universal health care, and let me know what you guys think. Or anyone from the US with horror stories from medical expenses, etc..... I know it's not been released yet, but it's on all the major torrent sites, and I'm assuming everyone knows how to use a computer and all that. If not, sorry come back & reply when ya see it __________________ Niggas talk a lot of shit in a safe place// I know cause they can't look me eye-to-eye when they in my face// ~ Pimp C (RIP)

06-27-2007, 09:31 AM	#2
troublemaker_42 May be habit forming Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10,866 Grams: 19,043.02 Groans: 158 Groaned at 37 Times in 34 Posts Thanks: 1,033 Thanked 1,753 Times in 935 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I.....just.....can't. It would take MM curing cancer and AIDS in the same day for me to ever begin to respect him. He has made a career out of clever editing, half-truths, and sensationalism. Do I believe we need major health care reform? You bet....but I knew that before MM decided to make this movie. Knowing his reputation for telling only his version of the truth, as opposed to the ACTUAL truth, I simply cannot take anything he is a part of very seriously. __________________ Remember you're a wreck, an accident forget the freak, you're just nature Keep the gun oiled and the temple clean shit, snort and blaspheme Let the heads cool and the engine run Because in the end, everything we do is just everything we've done..."Omega" by StoneSour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...ma#Gun_control www.sportsmenforObama.org

06-27-2007, 05:02 PM	#6
NachtSorcier Jr. Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 390 Grams: 1,401.50 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I understand why people hate Michael Moore. I've seen both Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11, and I'm sure I'll see Sicko at some point too, so my view on him is that while he's hardly going about it the right way, he does bring up some very good points about issues that need to be talked about. If you really think about it, he may not be very honest about it, but he's bringing said issues into the light via controversy; good or bad, controversy makes everyone aware, and hopefully the ones who are willing to do something about it will catch on because of it. In short, Moore's heart is in the right place, but he could make use of some better tactics. He certainly has the courage of his convictions, a trait that could be very useful in the right hands. I certainly wouldn't call it a horror story, but I still owe the hospital $300 because a doctor looked in my ears and mouth almost two years ago. __________________ People put their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution; they don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible.

06-27-2007, 05:29 PM	#7
*Plainsman1963* Advisor Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,281 Groans: 28 Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts Thanks: 545 Thanked 1,194 Times in 607 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: -1.000%	It's not a documentary...It's an opinion piece. And those folks he took with him to Cuba? Sure would have been nice to let them know they needed press credentials to travel legally to that country. MM remembered to get himself the credentials...He just "forgot" to tell the poor, sick people that to avoid breaking the law, they needed to do that too. Yeah, I loooooooovvvvveeeeeeee Michael Moore. __________________ "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." - Claire Wolfe Posting Guidelines

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06-27-2007, 01:42 PM	#3
5drive Slacker Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 3,274 Grams: 4,293.21 Groans: 5 Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts Thanks: 271 Thanked 631 Times in 432 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Our health care system is not just bad for the poor, but for every American. 'Sicko' is not a political film, it just shows the blood and guts of our sick health care in the US. The facts are there for anyone to see. The movie shows that big pharma and the insurance companies are profiting from illness and death, and people are paid big bucks to deny care and treatment. We're something like #38 in the world in the quality of health care. __________________ "Make the most of the Indian Hemp Seed and sow it everywhere." George Washington "The drug is really quite a remarkably safe one for humans, although it is really quite a dangerous one for mice and they should not use it." J.W.D Henderson Director of the Bureau of Human Drugs, Health and Welfare, Canada

06-27-2007, 03:42 PM	#4
TMG Sr. Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 821 Grams: 2,146.85 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 12 Times in 9 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Guys, just watch the damn thing before you start bitching up a storm. I honestly didn't think I'd dig it after the 911 one, but i totally did. This one is less Micheal magic (if u know what I mean), more people talking and telling their horror stories. PLEASE PLEASE just give it a chance. And TM, he doesnt cure cancer or AIDS but he does get, like, four or five people who were very sick and couldnt afford to pay for their medical treatments help for free. That was one of my favorite parts of the movie. GIVE IT A DAMN CHANCE. Seriously, we have it downloaded and we can send it (if Blunted knows how to do that cause I have no f'ing clue lol)! It's only one hour out of your life, and you'll be glad even if it does nothing more that make you hate MM more than you did to begin with.

06-27-2007, 04:34 PM	#5
OneHighAlaskan New Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 16 Grams: 656.65 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I saw it the other day (got it through bittorrent) and I definitely agree that it is a must see. I, at 16, never knew (or cared) that there was so much issues with the American system of providing health care, or lack there of. It was eye-opening and depressing at the same time. In most aspects, we are a decently advanced and developed country, but our health care is very lacking. It wouldn't be that hard for us to just model a system after the French or Cubans, which would be a major step from where we are now. Micheal Morre may be slightly biased but the problem is very real.

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