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Smoke2Much

Im taking a philosophy class in college and we were having a class discussion one day and somehow we got on the subject of animals thinking and rationalizing. One of the guys in the class was hellbent on the idea that animals under no circumstances could think, and everything they do is based on instinct. I dont believe thats true but Im always open to differing opinions. My girlfriend has a dalmation and hes kinda dopey, but I still consider him a pretty smart dog. She can tell him to "go see mama" and he'll go and find her mom and sit beside her. That doesnt seem like instinct to me, it seems like a skill that hes learned. And also, look at the animals that do tricks, or the gorillas that use sign language. Sign language isnt instinctual for a human, much less a gorilla. I do agree that some of their habits are instincts, but I believe that they are capable of rationalizing , as well as learning. What do you all think?

 

theherbalist

This is funny because my GF has been pondering the actions of our 2 male brown anoles (Golem & Smeagol) that my grandma brought back from FL. They smash their heads against the glass of the aquarium sometimes. Though they have done this multiple times they keep doing it. My parents dog (chelty(sp) rat-terrier mix) is smart as hell. Say "sit" and he sits, "frizbee" and gets his frizbee, "ball and he gets his ball, "squeeky" and he gets his big squeeky passifier. I think the difference between the two animals is, memorization abilities.

It is my belief that all animals have the ability to rationalize. I find that most humans have the hardest time with this ability. Wolves and lions understand that their survival is linked to the other lions. Some call it instinct, I call it a learned behavior passed down from parent to offspring. Humans have the tendancy to live for themselves and their own wants regarless of the effect it has on humanity/society as a whole. And regardless of the training of the parents. I.E. The War on Drugs/DEA, Adolf Hitler, Sodem Hussain, Britney Spears, crack and herion and cocaine dealers.

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greypoe

Animals communicate more then just instinct. They are social beings with their own prespective on the world. Plants and insects are social beings as well.

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sleepischeap

well since animals are just less advanced than us, id say their structure of thinking is similar to ours, only simpler.

Hall1bd

I think it depends on the animal. Animals like, dogs, apes, and some parrots can definitely rationalize. But other animals just do what instinct tells them. When they are hungry they eat, and when they are horny they have sex. Also learned behavior doesnt show rationalization, but chosing to not do the learned behavior for some reason or another definitely is.

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theherbalist

Very interesting point. I will have to ponder this........

strange_blaze

I dont really know if animals ran 'rationalize' but they can be conditioned.
All the examples of how dogs and other animals can learn to do tricks is exactly that, a learned behaviour. Anmials are conditioned to do behaviours by what the consequence of the behavior is. Learn to sit when comanded and recieve a treat.

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HappyMan

I have spent enough time with my cats to know that they can think, plan, and execute plans. I also see varying degrees of intelligence between the three of them. One of them figured out how to open closed doors, then taught another how to. The third cat still can't figure out how to open doors. but she did learn that if she scratches the sofa I would open it for her...

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Beatlejuice

I think it is very obvious that animals are capable of rational thinking. The fact that they can be trained or conditioned to do so many things is clearly an example of thinking. Sure it is just a learned behaviour, but that surely does not mean that there is no rational thinking involved. When someone says 'sit' to a dog, the dog thinks 'hmm, well he/she is either gonna give me some food or pet me if I do that thing, so what the hell.' Pavlov and his dogs come through once again.

Also there is a honeybee example they teach in linguistics. I'm sure you have all heard about how bees dance, but I didn't realize the dance tells so much about the honey find. They can tell exactly what direction, how far, and how big any kind of food find is just by the way they dance. Surely the other bees need to interpret the dance. This is probably instinctive but it still shows they are capable of communication and interpretation.

Another example that comes to find is my dear little Phoebe cat. If she is trying to say get on top of a shelf, she starts looking around and planning her route, and then executes it to perfection.

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cpd92574

being able to follow a command and having "rational thought" are very different things. its not necessarily a sign of a "smart" dog just because it follows commands well. there is absolutly no way to know that the dog has to "think" about anything when it responds to a command. its been trained to do whatever it is that it's doing.

a sign of intelligence would be problem solving, or some demonstratable understanding of time (planning for the future) to name a few.

it seems to me (and i have ELEVEN cats right now) that animals do NOT think, or at least they do not think in the sense that WE think.

animals do not understand language. a dog responding to a command is a conditioned response to that sound. he does not understand "SIT" and then think that plopping his butt down is "sitting". he knows that if he reacts this way to that sound he has done well.

hehe i dunno if that made much sense -_-