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| | #21 | |
| Advisor ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jul 2002
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I drew the line at harming innocents to try and save innocents. I would skin the terrorist alive if I thought it would work and not have too many qualms about that at all. He chose to be a terrorist and put us all in this position, he has given up any civil rights, imho. But to harm someone who is not at all involved with this has just brought me down to the same level as the terrorists. I don't think I could do that. I would rather face death standing than on my belly. If I harm innocent people to save other innocent people, I think I am low crawling.
__________________ "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." - Claire Wolfe Posting Guidelines | |
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| | #22 | |
| Jr. Member Join Date: May 2004
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__________________ LEAP Current and former members of law enforcement who support drug regulation rather than prohibition. Drug Policy Alliance Alternatives to Marijuana Prohibition and the Drug War | |
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| | #23 |
| The Man ![]() Join Date: Jan 2004
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| I think a little too much faith has been placed in the torture method. It almost seems as if most users here agree that if you just torture someone long and hard enough they'll give you what you want. Consider the possibility that no matter how you torture this guy, he's not going to tell you the truth. He may tell you something that will take you a couple of hours to confirm (thereby stalling your efforts until after the nuclear blast takes place). He may give you a wrong answer that looks very much like a right answer. Or he may just clam up totally. Torture is not the fail-safe method for getting the truth out of people. -HH |
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| | #24 |
| L.E.O. in Good Standing ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Dec 2000
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| The question isn't so much about particular methods being better or more effective, nor about the mechanics of a device (and yes, that bomb scenario is possible according to our local EOD guys).......... It's more of a question of can a situation not only change your view, but allow you to feel justified in changing it. We probably all agree that torture is generally wrong. But are there situations where your moral/ethical views of it change........and what does it take to get you to that level. And I'm curious about the thought process and reasoning it takes to get to the ultimate answer. So far, some of the answers are interesting.
__________________ A burning desire for social justice is never a substitute for knowing what you're talking about. -Thomas Sowell Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is muzzle flash. |
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| | #25 | |
| Jr. Member Join Date: May 2004
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That's why we have laws against vigilantes.That doesn't change the morality or effectiveness of it though, if I did that I'd be wrong. I can understand how abuse happens if I put myself in their position sometimes, but as I started this thread saying situational morality is too easy an excuse for too many things. Even if we sympathize, even if we understand, we can't support it. We can't afford to. | |
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| | #26 |
| The Man ![]() Join Date: Jan 2004
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| I've never had a stomach for torture. Even as a child when the other kids were playing "let's burn the eyes out of a beetle with a magnifying glass" I couldn't join in. If I step on a bug, and see it limping along afterward I gotta' kill it. I'm all about dealing the swift death blow, over watching long suffering. If I thought torture was an effective method for gathering reliable information I could see adopting it in an extreme circumstance. However, I have long been told that torture is pretty useless for the purposes of intelligence gathering. In the proposed situation anyone would do whatever was in their power to save the lives of the Californians. However, in order to save their lives we have to get the right answer out of our captive, and I don't see torture as the most effective way of doing that. I'd probably ask to speak to the highest ranked officials in the US intelligence gathering communities and ask them what the best method of getting an answer out of the captive is. If they said "the only tactic we have in this situation is torture", then I'd turn control of the situation over to Mike Tyson (he seems creative enough) and head the h*ll out of Cali. I'd be putting on some SPF-45 suntan lotion too, just in case the blast warms me up a little as I'm heading down the road. -HH |
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| | #27 |
| Seasoned Activist ![]() Join Date: Nov 2003
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| Don't anybody take this personally... I find it hard to understand a person's reluctance to torture in the situation hypothesized. Is it not the height of selfishness to firmly hold to personal belief that "torture is wrong" when a hundred thousand lives hang in the balance? I would find it difficult to justify 100,000 dead with "I don't believe in torture". As to the effectiveness of physical torture, I think that we don't know the answer to that. I have also read that physical torture is less effective than imagined, however from my reading that was a statement confined to just physical torture. I would imagine a comprehensive mix of drugs, physiological stress and physical pain would be somewhat more successful. Nonetheless, I would accept nothing less than 100% effort in our interrogations. This squeamishness is a luxury, like pacifism, not a tenable position in the face of true threats of the magnitude we are discussing. |
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| | #28 | ||||
| The Man ![]() Join Date: Jan 2004
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I would submit this for consideration: Those who would begin torturing the captive immediately would be more likely to get the 100,000 killed. -HH | ||||
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| | #29 | |
| Jr. Member Join Date: May 2004
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Once we start down the road where it's easy to justify an action because we'll get results what stops someone from proposing that the Palestinian problem could be largely solved in an afternoon with fuel/air explosives? Same with what happened in Falluja, or wherever else, the ends justify the means after all. How many lives might we save in the end if we just took another step down that road, then another? If we're fighting for our way of life instead of to adopt the ways of those we're fighting, we stick to what we know is right. If we don't we'll lose something a lot more important than a city. | |
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| | #30 | |
| Seasoned Activist ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Join Date: Mar 2002
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__________________ Ron Paul for the Long Haul | |
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