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sideoftheroad

I had this thought today, just another spin on a much-talked-about subject - drugs for spritual uses.

Personally, when I read those Erowid reports or talk to my buddies about how they smoked/popped/ate 'X' and saw the goddess of earth which told them about the blah blah blah I think it's BS. Yeah, you can learn stuff from drugs, but not much. Notice how all these great drug-induced profundities only last until the trip is finished and are just a distant memory a week later? I've had crazy moments when I've been completely out of it and the whole universe makes sense, but the thing is, they never help me when I am stressed out or in a jam, because they don't have much use in everyday-life (which is where we want happiness the most).

Which leads me to this - drugs, like spritual experiences, basically rewire your neurons and lead to great thoughts and feelings. Well, so do apples - their protein becomes ours and whatever chemicals they contain are now what compose us, so technically they are drugs as well. And everybit as psychological as hallucinogens, because if anyone who has fasted for a long time knows, food and lack of food really affect your senses and thought-process.

So for the person who takes spiritual refuge in drugs and believes they hold such great powers, they are missing out in the spiritual nature of everyday. It is only when they are influenced by the drug do they have these great visions.

But take, for instance, the mad Tao masters who live as hermits in a remote Chinese mountainside. They drink tea and feel what the drug-induced person feels - the pulse of life and so on. Yet the thing is, they feel it with each breath and with each bite and thought.

What's my point?

Well, I smoke pot and have for sure learned from it, but the things that have become meshed in my everyday life didn't come from a drug, but from (for instance) reading various texts and talking to different people and adopting a spiritual mentality WHILE I was sober, and therefore it stays with me when I'm sober.

So learn to get high of that apple you're eating! When you take a breath of air think about the physiological affects and how it's becoming part of you. The spiritual experiences that occur everyday and every second are missed by the majority of people, yet when that same experience is thrown at you with a fun assortment of colors and giggles and fear it seems more important. All these spiritualists who speak so highly of drug use are simply too superficial to understand that these drugs aren't really helping them, it's just that they are far too impatient when they are sober and rely on something to shove the lesson down their throat.

"The drug user drowns in the same pool mystics swim in."
- Joseph Campbell

 

DonkeyPunch

Yeah, you can learn stuff from drugs, but not much. Notice how all these great drug-induced profundities only last until the trip is finished and are just a distant memory a week later? I've had crazy moments when I've been completely out of it and the whole universe makes sense, but the thing is, they never help me when I am stressed out or in a jam, because they don't have much use in everyday-life (which is where we want happiness the most).

Well, sir, we differ very much in how we experience drugs. If your great drug induced profundities are lost to you soon after they occur, I ask you why they need to be. Have you ever written anything while stoned, or otherwise altered? I realize that this is not always possible, but it can be incredibly enlightening at a later time. Do you play any instruments? I've played both guitar and bass in bands over the years, and to this day, I love picking up one or the other when under the influence. Drugs allow me to bypass some of my normal thought patterns and hang-ups and produce words and sounds I would not have been capable of otherwise. And as soon as I play a cool riff, I know I will not forget it. (BTW, the apple/acid analogy is about as useful as a football bat.)

Sticking to pot for the sake of this argument, I find that it can be incredibly useful spiritually. I like to meditate both sober and stoned, depending on my mindset. I find it a great tool in shutting up some of the louder voices that dominate my thoughts, allowing me to reach a quiet, soothing, "in the moment" state a good bit quicker.

I think what I'm trying to get across here is that even though you may find some substances useless for certain spiritual reasons, there is no reason to think that someone else have similar experiences. I believe that all drugs which alter consciousness should have one big caution label on them: Results may vary.

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hauptmann

There is a such thing as a drug induced epiphany. Psychoactive drugs can alter your perception and way of thinking. If you come to a realization/revelation under the influence of that drug, you do not forget it the next day. I think you are making a generalization when you say....

If a person truly understands their own spirituality, then they do comprehend how it is a part of their everyday life and that means they can also understand how psychoactive drugs can effect/help their spiritually.

On the other hand I do believe that alot of people do fool themselves into thinking they are using drugs for spiritual purposes. Alot of people do not fully comprehend what is meant by using drugs in a spiritual sense. They believe that "tripping out", hallucinating or coming close to "total conciousness" while not understanding what it is, is a spiritual revelation when it really is not. So maybe that is what your trying to say?

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vaya

Drug induced epiphanies come in two types; those that are applicable, and those that are fantasy.

The difference is, one must psychologically work for an applicable epiphany, whereas a fantasy is merely some form of so-called "enlightenment" that can be felt while on said drug, but afterwards holds no meaning in one's life, because it is just that; a fantasy.

To "work" for an epiphany means some serious self-exploration. It takes time and many different uses of said drug to have a true break-through, though it can happen in one sitting if the circumstances in ones life are right.

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For one to be high on whatever and tell themselves upon seeing Jesus in a toilet stall 'Wow, it all makes sense now!', that is fantasy and is no worthwhile revelation; I doubt it to be a revelation at all.

For one to be high on whatever and tell themselves, 'oh wow, I see what I've been doing incorrectly in my life, and I now see the proper direction to head in", this is what is called an applicable epiphany because you can actually use it. To use it or not, in the end, is up to the individual, depending on how realistic the thought was in the first place.

Of course, it's all subjective. The use of psychedelia to further one's concept of one's self or one's environment is very, very psychological and can't truly be broken down into two categories, but for the sake of argument, I done it

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Arise -SWS-

I firmly believe that regardless of how your mind is altered, whether it be from air, apples, acid, or afghani skunk, whatever you experience is just as real and valid as your normal sober thought process. Modern psychology, science, theory and Eastern religions all agree that your perceptions form your reality, and NEVER the other way around. This means that reality is highly subjective and is the precise reason why we all NEVER think exactly alike.

Now with that said, we all know that our perceptions are altered or changed after consuming drugs (and for the sake of this argument, we'll stick to pot, although you could substitute air, food, etc...) our thought processes become altered. We begin to analyze the world around us in a different way, see things in a new light, change our behaviors, and react to stimuli in a new fashion. My question is, how is this any different from what happens with a "valid" spiritual experience? After a session of sober meditation, I am in a mental state of calm comparable to after I smoke marijuana. Does that make my meditation, or my spiritual accomplishments during the activity less valid? Of course not. It was simply a different means to the same end. My point is, that along with marijuana, some drugs have the ability to alter your mind and induce spiritual states of being- a sort of "smokeable zen", if you will. Just because it's temporary does not diminish its validity.

Now, the real question is what do you do with what you learn from your drug-induced spiritual enlightenment? Certainly, sober zen-seekers fair no better than perpetual stoners in applying these spiritual lessons. Therefore, it becomes a matter of consciously changing your perceptions to change your reality, and in doing so, changing your reality in accordance with your newfound spirituality. I think your post is really meant to be critical of people who claim great spiritual discovery after a drug experience but fail to adjust to this discovery, not the validity of the experience itself. Remember, reality is subjective, an altered reality (refer to your experiences and those of others here) is still VERY REAL to the person percieving it. How they live afterwards is the real test of if they remember and appreciate what happened to them.

Also, you imply that being "high on life" is superior to being "high on drugs." I ask you, if you're getting high on an apple rather than weed, aren't you still getting high? What's the difference? High is high, and if an apple puts you in the same state of spiritual satisfaction as a joint, doesn't that make the high from an apple equally as (in your terms) artificial as marijuana? Furthermore, if your life alters your state of mind (as being high on life should) doesn't that make your everyday, sober reality just as transitory and "artificial" as getting stoned? Very heavy food for thought there...

 

SevenLeafs

Well, first you start stating that "personally" you think this, that's excelent. You are entitled to your opinions.

Here's the thing, I do not "notice how all these great drug-induced profundities only last until the trip is finished and are just a distant memory a week later", because the things I have learned while high (marijuana high only, I don't do any other stuff) stay with me and I develop the thoughts further while I'm "sober" and while I get high once more. So I have done the following: I elaborate the ideas I had on one trip when I'm not under the influence, and then they come to me again in another trip, so I add more "great drug-induced profundities" to the ideas I already had.

All this has helped me elaborate plans, ideas, music compositions, writtings, useful tips, etc etc, that help me in the everyday life, making my life much easier. So my thoughts to you, sideoftheroad, when you say: "they never help me when I am stressed out or in a jam, because they don't have much use in everyday-life"; would be learn to use your ideas in a more productive way

Peace.7L

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Cassius

Yeah, just grab a pad of paper and pen while you're stoned sometime. Keep it next to you when you smoke and if you think of anything grandiose, write it down.

Oh and try to write it down in plain terms, occasionally you'll look back later and wonder what the hell you were referring to. But for the most part I remember the ideas I have while high and also find that they help me in everyday life.

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SevenLeafs

Haha, yeah, you feel like crap when you pick up that written idea and find that it does not makes sense at all or you simply do not understand your own writting because you wrote to fast, as to not loose the idea...

What works best for me are simple diagrams of my ideas:

The world is huge
It is round,
People live in it,
The people tend to have crazy ideas
Oceans are large
Water is liquid
etc etc

Then, when I read the notes, the ideas just come to me naturally, as if high.

Peace.7L

Edit: The diagram I wrote didn't appear the way I wrote it.... I hope you get the idea...

Philosopher

I dont think its a question of being superficial. There is allways a good vs bad situation with every thing we as humans do. (I remind you this is my opinion only and I strongly support my 1st amendment!) I enjoy pondering questions, but I try not to think about what Im pondeirng on. When I'm high and my mind is stress free and easy to think "2 and 2" come together a little naturally it feels. I tried opium for the first (and only to date) time about a month ago. At this time my close friends where having a lot of (mellowdrama) issues. Unfortunately Lurch, and myself were caught in the middle. As we're setting on the couch experiencing this opium.
I felt as if my "thirdeye" had suddenly focused on me and my person issues in life. Then a few of the commandments of the masonic lodge came to mind.
: Don't keep insincere friends
: Don't let your passions control you
: Allways seek wisdom

I realized that one group was going against the words of A Perfect Circle [If you're on this forum I hope you've heard this band]. And my other friend was just hurt and upset... I became clear on what I must do to better my future, and my spiritual self.

On a bad note.
I recently experienced oxycottons for the first (and definate last) time. It got to the point that I couldn't breathe unless I fully focused on my breathing patterns. Even then it was still shallow breathes. My body felt as if something left my. But, that just came to me... I was overdosing on the pills (not fataly, but dangerously) and something was telling me I had abandoned my soul.
What I mean by that is by putting my body in such a critical condition that I left myself with only aid of my physical and mental self. However my mental self was impaired so I had really F*cked myself over... A bad lesson, but a spiritual one none the less.

I guess my simplest answer could be. "It depends on the what you learn".

tehpapes

I'd agree with most of the 'replies' in that it is very possible to extend whatever insight you might have gained while on one substance or another to your 'real' life. For a somewhat silly and very practical example, I play music (or try, haha), and one day I discovered on my computer a transcription of a basic tune that I must have composed one day while exceptionally high (I say that because I don't remember writing it and the file was named 'stoned'). Well, I expanded on that piece to make one of the songs I am personally most proud of. It's nothing profound, mind you, but certainly something meaningful that I was able to carry over into my sober life. (It depends on other things, including my mood, but for me, a bowl or two will bust that writer's block right to pieces! haha) I do appreciate your point though, and what you are saying probably does apply to a great many people, including myself, at least some of the time.