Stephanie S.

This Thread, specifically a comment by HH inspired a couple of wonderings. Rather than drag that thread off topic, I've just put the thoughts here and am curious as to what people think about the vast differences in peoples thinking regarding the War in Iraq, or war period.


I think the same thing, everyday, several times a day. I've thought, maybe it's me who is blind, maybe I'm just a peace freak, maybe I'm crazy, maybe there was something I missed along the way. Apparently it is quite simple for those who support the War in Iraq. It's mind- boggling to me, how people see this issue so completely differently.

War freaks me out. The atrocities of war, the havoc it wreaks upon the innocent lives of people should be used with the utmost caution and concern for the well being and security of the innocent bystanders. Meticulous and conscientous planning must be top priority WELL Before an invasion such as that of Iraq. And, before all of that planning, there must be reason, beyond a shadow of a doubt that entry into war is an absolute NECESSITY, without question.

There must be some reason that a large number of people were and still are unconvinced of a need to invade Iraq. We weren't convinced. Why were some convinced and some not?

Were you at one time convinced and later did you change your mind?
Have you always believed in the need for Iraqi invasion?
Please explain.


peace

__________________
"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." —George W. Bush, Greece, N.Y., May 24, 2005 (Listen to audio)

Herb Ninja

I'm reminded of a quote from an old Black Sabbath song, "The truth is out, the lies are old."

Indeed, at the beggining of this war I was (now regrettably) a supporter. I believed Bush when he said with such certainty that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. I was just thinking yay were going to liberate the Iraqis, but I didn't really think about how many people would be killed, I didn't think about a thousand plus (and constantly rising) death toll of American troops. I didn't imagine that people I know would be sent over there and that I would be watching the news to see if they were next casualty. I was narrow minded, convinced by neoconservative propaganda, I saw the world like Bush does, in black and white. Peace, HN-

Heres some quotes from Ludwig Von Mises, since were looking at differen't peoples perspectives of war.

"To defeat the aggressors is not enough to make peace durable. The main thing is to discard the ideology that generates war."

"If some peoples pretend that history or geography gives them the right to subjugate other races, nations, or peoples, there can be no peace."

"Only one thing can conquer war--that liberal attitude of mind which can see nothing in war but destruction and annihilation, and which can never wish to bring about a war, because it regards war as injurious even to the victors."

"History has witnessed the failure of many endeavors to impose peace by war, cooperation by coercion, unanimity by slaughtering dissidents…. A lasting order cannot be established by bayonets."

"The losses that the national economy suffers from war, apart from the disadvantages that exclusion from world trade entails, consist of the destruction of goods by military actions, of the consumption of war material of all kinds, and of the loss of productive labor that the persons drawn into military service would have rendered in their civilian activities. Further losses from loss of labor occur insofar as the number of workers is lastingly reduced by the number of the fallen and as the survivors become less fit in consequence of injuries suffered, hardships undergone, illnesses suffered, and worsened nutrition."

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"Truth is treason in an empire of lies." -Ron Paul

Buzzby

Prior to the invasion I was in favor of it. Much evidence was presented to show that Iraq was in possession of WMD and had intent to use them against citizens of the United States. Much was made of Iraq's impending nuclear capability and its connection with terrorism.

I never imagined that the government of the United States could be so stupid as to go to war over intelligence that hadn't been verified six ways from Sunday, or so convinced of the stupidity of the American people to think they could get away with lying to us. I was wrong. The government is either incompetent or convinced of our incompetence. Maybe both!

While I am against the idea of preemptive war, the strength of the propaganda machine had convinced me that Iraq was a "clear and present danger". I will not be so gullible again.

What amazes me is that now that the truth is out people still support the war. I'm not talking about the people, including myself, who believe that we need to clean up the mess we made before we leave. I mean that there are actually Americans, perhaps a majority, who think that the reason for the war was to displace an evil dictator and spread the blessings of democracy. How can they forget the lies that actually got us there?

The world is full of murderous regimes, many of them more repressive than that of Saddam Hussein. The "true believers" don't seem to ask why we have killed a hundred thousand Iraqis and lost more than a thousand American lives to conquer a country that doesn't want us on its soil. Are we going to invade every nation on Earth that has a government of which we don't approve?

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Stephanie S.

Yeah, I wonder that too.

One of the things that has bothered me from the time the administration at the time, was that they didn't (and still don't) seem to grasp the reality of Islam. Islam does not support the ideology behind a "democracy". Democracy is the complete opposite of the culture of Islam. How can you "liberate" a people with an ideology that they(the majority of Islamists) are fundamentally opposed to?

Another question. If you did originally support the war, what convinced you?
Was it the snappy diagrams Colin Powell presented to the UN? Was it the arial photographs of supposed stockpiles of WMD? Was it a combination of all of their superbly crafted presentations? Was it the language they used? Was it the initial fear that rose in many of us after 9-11?

Why did so many people believe what those people were saying? Why were I and a small minority unconvinced while the vast majority of the country totally bought it?

I'm perplexed by this whole thing and the thinking behind people's opinions.

peace

Hiz Highness

As near as I can tell most of the war supporters seem to subscribe to some theory that the government really does have some sort of ingenious plan that it's hiding from the public. Why they wouldn't be angry that their government intentionally mislead them and then continues to keep them in the dark about this magnificent plan is beyond me. In all honesty I think they're just stubborn, and feel like they'd lose too much face if they came out and said "Yeah, we were taken for a ride on this one. We'll have to watch the government more closely next time".

That, and I think some of them think we should kill mass quantities of muslims whether they're a threat to us or not, simply because they aren't like good American Christians. You have the fundamentalist christians in this country that do look at this as a holy war, General Boykin being one of them (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug19.html).

I hope more fall into the former category than the latter, but who knows these days.

-HH

Zilos

Well, lets see, the United States has a huge army iching to be used, gun laws virtually non-existant, gun rights groups like the NRA fighting to keep guns in peoples homes, what can I say, to quote Penn & Teller "..as much as we hate to admit it, it seems pretty clear, that our country, loves a f**ckin' war"

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solutions

I was pretty uncomfortable with the invasion of Iraq and I though the runup was scandalous. IIRC correctly I quoted the Pope in a thread once when I first posted here. That's a rare occasion for me....

After the invasion I was relieved the country was "taken" in a month or so and somewhat positive, when Saddam didn't nuke Israel. And to see this freak go, just when he was entering his Islamic period by building mosques with quranic verses in his own blood (or was that a dream?), it could turn out an investment of some value. But, the number of thing going wrong, the scandals and the continuing violence still leaves me uncomfortable for the longer term outcome.

Anyway, I hardly even know anymore, ask me after the elections.

__________________
3 monkeys sitting under a coconut tree
discussing things as they are set to be
Said one to the other, now listen you two
there's a strange rumor that can't be true
they say man was descended from our noble race
but the very idea is a big disgrace
no monkey ever deserted his wife
or her baby to ruin their lives.
Damian Marley - Educated Fools

Buzzby

All of the above, except the last. I never understood that one. For any individual American the risks from driving to the corner for a quart of milk far outweigh the risks from terrorists.

As to why I accepted this evidence as being true, I believe I've already answered that question:

Buzzby

Excuse me, but that's a 100% load of crap.

The US has a relatively small military for its population and the vast majority of us have no desire to see our sons and daughters in harm's way. There are 20,000 gun laws on the books. I see no possible connection between civilians owning firearms for self-protection, shooting sports, and hunting with a desire to go to war.

I hate war and was very involved in protesting the war in Vietnam. I have owned guns since 1970 (when friends of mine were murdered by the National Guard at a war protest at Kent State), I've been a member of the NRA for 25 years (because they protect my right to own firearms from people like you who would like to take it away), I'm a Liberal/Libertarian, a Buddhist, and an active (and quite proficient) target shooter.

The Dalai Lama (one of the three nicest guys on Earth) said, "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back."

I find self-righteous Canadian hoplophobes to be very annoying but have, so far, been able to restrain myself from shooting any of you.

Hiz Highness

Sorry to hear that Buzz. If the Kent State (and shortly afterward Jackson State) shootings didn't illustrate why civilians need to own guns in this country I don't know what will. Wake up people, the government isn't here to serve your interests, you are here to serve theirs.

-HH