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Andrew87

1) Don't think you have me pegged just from a few posts on a message board. If you're going to accuse someone of being narrow-minded, you'd best try not come across as such yourself.

2) Re-read the last sentence of post # 11. I agreed that I don't see anything wrong with trying to talk to them. It is the physical intervention that I disagree with.

3) What's the deal with this?

I don't see where I claimed anything even remotely resembling what you are describing....perhaps you could cite an example(s)?

4) Don't take this the wrong way, Circa, but many of your arguments (at least that I've seen) have glaring holes in them. Perhaps this is why you consider my post-dissection "nitpicking." If I'm wrong, you'll have to explain to me more specifically.

 

carlover_36

Perhaps, just perhaps, this friend has no desire for anyone to be telling him how to live his life. Perhaps, there are issues in this young person's life that he could really just use a good ear, someone to listen. You can be right all the time, or you can have friends. Take your friend out for a beer or two, and maybe just listen for a little bit, might learn a little something.

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circasurvivefan

No, I just feel everything you have said in response to all of my posts was either condescending or just confirming that you disagree with a snide or sarcastic comment. And intervention, what I mean is that instead of talking to a person in a casual situation where they are given the chance to say fuck you and walk away, you get more people together and you basically force the person to listen to your opinion. You don't force them to do anything, but you at least make them listen to what you have to say. Where is the violation in that? I always thought that's what an intervention was, you say you're throwing a party and it turns out you're expressing concern to someone. Afterwards, they're allowed to do what they want. It's just a more serious way of getting your point out there and letting the person know you really care and aren't going to just mention it casually and be told to fuck off.

And this goes back to another argument in another thread where everything that I said, that could be backed up with personal experiences was shat on by you. Like college students can be stressed, and you laugh and came up with some redicolous argument that college students can't be stressed becuase theyre not in the miltary and that you handle college just fine. Some people don't handle it fun, just because you do doesn't mean you can laugh it off. And I said about how someone shot someone over a parking spot or stabbed or whatever (I don't exactly remember), you had never heard of the story so you denied it's existance, yet it's out there. I even found it afterwards but didn't see the need to post it and drag the argument out any longer.

And I'm definetly not narrow minded, as with here and as with the gun thing. There are TWO opinions to both those arguments. BOTH SIDES are VALID. In fact, there are more than 2 opinions on this, it's called giving someone advice. There is no need to waste your time trying to prove logic flaws in what someone else is saying when they are only trying to give advice to help someone out. Maybe I shouldn't have started this by saying you were wrong but that's too late now. My point stands, if the person doesn't listen when you bring it up and you're really concerned it's not unreasonable to forice him to have to listen to your side especially if more people are worried. In the end, theyre still making their choices, I just feel better voicing my concerns wether I'm right or wrong. It's not selfish and unconstitutional to take a half hour of someones time and make them listen to you.

And you are nitpicking, maybe I'm just not as good as explaining what I'm saying that you can find holes in it. But I don't think there is any lack of logic in what I'm suggesting.

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Andrew87

Not really. Just because you haven't proven to me that your point of view makes any sense whatsoever doesn't mean that I have a hard time understanding it.

Tip for the future: Don't resort to name-calling in a discussion. In addition to being incredibly juvenile, it lets the other person know that they are getting a rise out of you.

I believe this would also constitute flaming, which I'm sure you know is against the forum rules.

In a philosophical discussion, this is what I would do.

However, you are claiming that it is somehow ethical to deprive someone of liberty without just cause (and for the last time, your interpretation of events is NOT just cause). That is why I take such strong offense to your standpoint.

blondie0420

Dude, flaming people is just silly. Andrew didn't flame you. It's a discussion between concerned parties. This kid made a thread asking what he should do and people shared their differing opinions. That's all. Chill out a little, mmkay?

How do you know this situation is "out of control?" Read your own words below:

So no one here knows the specifics and yet you have the liberty to claim that the situation with this friend is "out of control?" That really doesn't make much sense.

Well, we are all welcome to our opinions.

Ok, so you're also against drinking alcohol then, too, right? Alcohol can cause addiction. And it can cause death after just one use (that is, one episode of heavy drinking). So if any of my friends drink alcohol, even once, I should call their parents and/or stage some sort of an intervention for them? Is that what you're saying?

People use lies and exaggerations to say that marijuana is a gateway drug as a scare tactic because the actual, physical harm of using the drug is so minor that they could not otherwise justify abstaining from using it.

I said that drugs and alcohol are a part of growing up. I didn't say anything about marijuana causing people to use alcohol or hard drugs, so I don't really know how the whole "gateway drug" theory got mixed into this discussion.

Interesting opinion. Start a new thread about it and we'll discuss it there.

I didn't say that. I said until this kid starts stealing from his friends to get drug money, then it doesn't affect them. Just because a friend is adopting a new lifestyle and making new friends, doesn't mean his actions are specifically hurting his old friends. Like I said, friends can grow apart. It tends to happen as people grow up.

People act on their own free will. Sometimes they do things you don't like and there's nothing you can do about it. I think we need to explore more deeply the issue of whether this friend has an actual problem (which he may) or whether these two friends are just growing apart (which also may be true).

Dude, seriously...until your friends stage a would-be-intervention for you (one that you feel you really don't need) you won't get this. They are intrusive, very much so. And as I said before, it does feel like an attack when people come at you saying things like "you have a problem" and "you're out of control" and things of that nature. It's especially unconvincing if the people who are doing it aren't really close enough to you to be able to adequately judge what's been going on in your life. The OP and his friend have drifted apart, his friend is hanging out with a new crowd, and so the OP assumes his life has gone to shit and is taking a downward spiral or however everyone else worded it. He hasn't told us how he knows that his friend is using drugs, nor the extent of his use (something, again, that is very important to this discussion).

Yes, but sometimes things aren't out of control and talking to them as if it were an intervention seems intrusive and unnecessary.

But if you're talking to them in the first place, you've already made the assumption that they are "out of control" (your words, see above), so what is this person going to say that's going to change your mind? My guess is that once you've reached that point, any response the friend makes is going to seem like a lie to you because you've already convinced yourself that they have a problem.

**I'm not saying that all interventions are bad, because I agree there are times when they are necessary and the situation does in fact warrant it. I'm just saying you can't just up and decide that because someone is doing something you don't like that they must have a problem and that you must be the one to make them see the light so that they can fix it (read: be your friend again).**

I hope to God that is a typo and that you meant to say "this is not..." Seriously.

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circasurvivefan

Okay, well I'm sorry but let's just agree to disagree. Stealing is a crime, someone can go to jail for it. In my opinion, anyone with any morales or connection to a friend would continually suggest they not do that until the person doesn't do it anymore. If they didn't then I'd say fuck off myself and leave them. To me, it's morally wrong. And for the last time, to me it's just cause. To you it's not. You can underline and capitalize all you want but it doesn't make either of us more wrong or right than the other. Therefore I'm done with this argument. My advice as stated to the original poster is to decide if his friends actions are going to get him into trouble that his friend may regret later on. If so, do all you can to prevent him from going down that path. That's just my advice. Yours is opposite andrew87. This is not a hard concept to get. I'm stickign to my opinion, you're sticking to yours. From personal experience, (this is not just an opinion so shove your quote up your you know where) some people don't always take advice but can later thank you for it later. Not everyone knows what's best for them at all times, maybe you have but some people don't.

circasurvivefan

Yes, of course it was a typo. I think all we're proving here is that I'm not a good debator. So let me summarize one last time what I'm trying to say and we can let this whole issue go to rest.

The kid is concerned.
He came here.
My advice is if he feels, and perhaps some other friends feel the kid has a problem casually talk to him.
If he doesn't respond and you still feel that something is wrong force him to listen. Don't force him to do anything, but make him listen to your concerns and why you think they're legitamite.
And please read everything I said, I had plenty of friends on my back about my weed usage at the start, many discussions that almost lost me friendships but in the end things worked out okay. Even though I was angry I appreciated my friends cared.

And sorry for flaming, again I'm stating an opinion. Wether you agree or find it innapropriate or not I have a right to state it.
And lastly, no, we don't know the situations. The kid is concerned and I'm speaking from the perspective that he already thinks his friend has a problem. Again, my opinion is there's nothing wrong with talking to someone, you're not making them do anything but listen.
Read my last post on why I'd intervene on stealing. And don't say it's based on personal opinion and who I want them to be. It's illegal and isn't like weed where you're only harming yourself. People are affected by stealing and it's just not right.

All we're doing is arguing semantics. Out of control, and addicted, and too many drugs means different to different people.
I think this is the key.
If the kid thinks his friend has a problem, regardless of wether that person does or not, he has every right to make sure his friend knows his stance on this. He doesn't have to change his actions but it's not intrusive to make sure someone knows how you feel. It's not about right or wrong. I'm arguing for the right to be able to let someone know that you're concerned when they're blowing you off and don't want to listen. It may help in the long run as it has done with friends of mine, It may not, and there may not even be a problem. But what is the harm in trying?

There, my argument, over and done with.

Andrew87

Apparently we had a misunderstanding over the definition of the term. I see nothing wrong with what you wrote here.

My impression was that you intended on forcing the person into a treatment facility against their will. That was what my strong objection was focused on.

Look dude, you're not getting it: You really shouldn't use circumstantial evidence that you can't prove ever even happened to back up your claims, particularly in a logical debate (the guns on college campuses one). Just because you SAY that something happened does not make it credible. That's why I appreciate cites in debates.

What I actually said was that if you were going to make such an extreme claim you should at least cite a specific example. Sorry, but I'm not just going to take your word for it.

A truly open-minded person would be open-minded enough to entertain the possibility that they may in fact actually be close-minded. Goes back to that quote "true knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing."

Just a thought provoker...

Open-mindedness....there's a great discussion. For another time, of course.

blondie0420

You force them to listen, but you're not forcing them to do anything?

So if you have an intervention and the friend tries to get up and leave and you force them to listen (read: force them to stay), you're not forcing them to do anything?

I'm sorry, you can dislike me for saying this, but I think this is probably some of the funniest shit I have read in a long time. Can we all take a break from the serious discussion we have here and laugh for a minute about telling someone you're throwing a party and then catching them off-guard with an intervention? Please tell me I'm not the only one that sees the humor in that. I'm not saying that interventions are funny, I'm just saying, the whole party bit. That's pretty hilarious.

circasurvivefan

Yeah it's funny, I laughed at it to as I typed it but I was trying to explain what I meant and I just used the party example showed in all tv shows mostly sitcoms
And yeah, you're forcing them to listen. Big deal, to me that doesn't violate anyone's rights. Again, just an opinion, disagree if you want. If they were going to be at your place anywhere, you know for the party they can stay and listen and not be missing out on anything.
And please, stop nit picking everything I say. I can't keep up with you guys. I think though we're at the point we can just leave it as two seperate pieces of advice. I appreciate both your opinions and I suppose I should take back the harsh words I said. I just find the way you debate extremely frustrating and backed up more by snide remarks and sarcasm than anything of substance, it's more about the other person looking foolish rather than your arguments looking clever. But alas, the world of sleep and the fucking of an 8-5 work day call me. Thank you for the lovely evening.