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~Jeans~

Immigration isn't a bad thing. I work with people from the UK and they're wonderful and I'm glad to know them. Difference is they respect our laws and are here legally and as an added bonus they speak English. I'm suprised that you don't see a problem with someone coming here and not learning to speak English. How can you expect to function and be a productive member of society if you can't even communicate with the people around you. I definitely see that as a problem.

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Jeans

"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistocation"

 

Jake

It doesn't really matter in the long run. People die, man. Most legal immigrants learn english within 5 years of being here, or at least learn it well enough to fuction well in society. But it doesn't matter, because if they don't learn it, their children do because they actually live here. I know spanish pretty well, so maybe I'm a little biased towards the language...

It's the same thing when I am asked about amnesty. On a moral standpoint, I cannot support amnesty. It's a slap in the face to the people who waited in line. But at the same time, you cannot just round up and deport 12 million people, who on the large part, are hardworking and have families here. So what I support is stregnthening our boarders tremendously to cut down on NEW illegal immigrants. We will not give current illegals amnesty, but we're not going to be hunting them down. They will die off eventually and their children are already citizens as soon as they were born here...

You see what I'm saying? I would love to be an anti-amnesty person who wants every illegal brought to justice, but there's no way to do it without having a massive human rights disaster.

Besides, it's just lines in the soil...

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~Jeans~

I don't have anything against the language itself. It doesn't bother me that they know or speak Spanish. The problem is they don't speak English. I don't know about you but I wouldn't go to Germany and expect them to all speak English. I'd be walking around like an idiot with one of those translation books. Perhaps the reason it frustrates me so much is because I deal with it frequently. I've had people call my office who can't speak English. Our poor receptionist has to spend a half hour trying to explain to them that we don't employ a special person to communicate with them. This has actually happened a few times in the past couple weeks. I will say this though, there are immigrants that come here and are grateful and passionate and work their butts off to learn our language and make a good life here. I'm not by any means saying it's immigrants as a whole.

The fact that we would have to "round" up 12 million people is just proof that this problem has gone on for way to long. At one point the number was at 1 million and then 2 and so and so. It's out of hand and the number won't stop at 12 million either. As far as amnesty goes, I'm having a hard time with that one because there are good arguments on both sides of that fence. I agree though that it is a "slap in the face to the people who waited in line".

feedyourhead

why don't we just get a big ol' rock and set it right on top of the united states?
heaven forbid we become a more multicultural society and catch up with the rest of the world...
you do realize that the people who immigrate into the united states are escaping because of poverty, and probably don't stop and think 'well, before we leave we should probably go ahead and take some english-speaking classes before we go...' these people can't even afford clean water... what makes you think that they can afford to learn english while they're in mexico? of course i think that they should learn it, but i understand them not knowing it as soon as they got to the US. and for the record, i saw a LOT of tourists both on the continent and in the UK who didn't speak the respective country's native language when i lived in london. guess what nationality most of them were? you guessed it, american.

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ITG

This is a difficult and interesting subect, complex in its many layers. First off, I have to disagree with Lamm's analysis, unless he merely means "the destruction of America as we know it." The main reason that multicultural societies crumble is BECAUSE there is one that rules over the other, which LEADS to the tension between the groups.

I personally do not believe in the practice of victimology or things like affirmative action. Applications should not have questions about race on them. It should be a blind procedure, so the best person for the job GETS the job. And, even if a business owner DOES decide to not hire someone because of race, as terrible as that is, IT IS THEIR PEROGATIVE. Obviously the STATE should not do so; all citizens are equal in the eyes of the state. It is a fact that people are NOT equal. Some are smarter, some are stronger. But in terms of rights, of respect as a fellow human being, all ARE equal. A person is no less human for where they come from, what language they speak, or the color of their skin (this goes both ways- as a black man or hispanic is just as good as a white man, a white man is just as good as a black man or hispanic).

Secondly, America has a very unique situation. Unlike almost all other countries, the bulk of its citizens do NOT share a common history. My mother's family has been here since before the Revolution; my father's father immigrated here (legally) from Turkey less than 50 years ago. In most countries of the world, the national identity is firmly estalished, because of the way society worked back then- you grew up in your village and you stayed there, repeat for several millenia. Instead, the vast majority of America's population either are or are descended from immigrants from all over the world. We weren't even considered a world superpower until after the airplane was invented, for heaven's sake. Our national identity is essentially a lie- it is manufactured, something we made, not developed like that of others of the world. It comes not from our history, but from our minds, from what we want, not what we are.

Do I believe in granting amnesty to the illegal immigrants? Yes, I do. I do because the immigration laws for our country are broken, ridiculous. If there was a fair system, then these people most likely would have used it. The majority of illegal immigrants are not otherwise criminals- they came here in search of work, of safety, of a better life. And obviously there was work for them here, and while I could not say that deporting them would cause havoc- I know on a small scale, it does not- I do not see why it is necessary. Is it fair to people who follow the laws? No, it isn't. But I argue the fault of that lies on the government, for creating such ludicrous immigration laws in the first place. Can anyone of us say that if our positions were switched with that of the immigrants, faced with potential starvation and certain poverty, and we saw an opportunity to come here and succeed, immediately and not a decade from now when it may be too late (with fees that we couldn't hope to pay anyway), that we would not take it? I know I would.

Third, the problem of language is, again, one inflicted by the illegal status. The reason illegal immigrants do not learn English is because the only people they have to interact with is their fellow illegal immigrants. If they instead were legal, they would interact with society. It has been shown in language studies that the most effective way to learn a language is total submersion. Full grown adults quickly learn a new language when they HAVE to. For instance, my mother was an exchange student to Sweden in high school. When she went there, she only knew a few words. When she came back, she could speak the language- while not fluently, at least practically. That was only a summer. Illegal immigrants are ostracized and work entirely within themselves, always speaking spanish to each other because tht's what everyone else speaks. This is what threatens our language, not the number of immigrants. If they were properly integrated, it simply wouldn't be a problem.

It is not diversity, multiculturalism, or immigration that will destroy this country. It is the way that we react to it. The current problem with immigration is not the people. There have been influxes as proportionally large- and larger- in the past. The people are not a threat to America unless we make them one. If millions of Americans suddenly moved to China, to England, to Russia- they would not feel that we were threatening their culture. Their culture is what it is, and will remain that despite us being there.

It is America's uncertainty in its identity, and ferocious desire to protect that uncertain identity, that is the risk. We are not willing to accept them because we do not have faith that our identity is strong. In the past, we were not so invested in it. But our generation, our parents' generation, and, if you're young enough, our grandparents' generation, that have been brought up believing in it by people who were not it. We believe it is real, but we do not know it is real. It is the only thing we have to defend, instead of discovering the truth.

So, if you wish to believe that it is the fault of people who come here, even illegally, to try and make a better life for themselves, that's fine by me. It's within your rights to do so. But I ask you this: is that not why our forefathers came here? Did they not leave their countries, in hope of a better life? Did they not come here, to where there already was a people, and begin anew, for themselves and for their children? These people do no different. They should have had the opportunity to do so legally, in a sane way. They have skills that this country wants and will employ- why not let them all come? There is plenty of land here. There are plenty of resources for more. There IS NO REASON to limit immigration to the degree that we have. Except fear.

Do I argue for open borders? No, I do not. But I also do not argue for the forced exportation of a hardworking people, a people who have, perhaps, earned their place here more than someone who is a citizen here but by accident of birth. I do not argue for the enforcement of a process that does nothing but shut out people who want to come here for legitimate purposes and have skills we want- nay, need. I argue for the logical realization of what we can do for these people, and what they can do for us. Not as state to immigrants. Not as dominant culture to invading culture. But as one person to another person. I argue for what is perhaps the only part of our identity that is true, for what our country was founded, for what several of my ancestors fought for and died for 230 years ago- for freedom, for all, to live as best they can. For freedom to be who and what you are, and not what somebody else wants and forces you to be.

I argue for the simple belief that we, that all humans, are in fact free.




One final question that I have: did anybody ever argue for Mexifornia to be censored? I don't understand why he said that. This is, after all, America. We have Mein Kampf here. It's a fundamental right that it not be censored, guaranteed by the Constitution. The inclusion of this statement makes me wonder if he would be so quick to state that a book arguing for immigrants should remain uncensored.

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It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul.

 

THC Fiend

yeah i agree we should all speak spanish

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"Nietzsche is dead."
-God

brevity is... wit

feedyourhead

how in the hell is multiculturalism a bad thing in a country that was CREATED on multiculturalism? ugh. like i said, rock + US and i guess everyone will be happy, huh? thank god america's not catching up with the rest of the world.

vern

Illegal immigrants effect my life...uhh...lets see, let me think about this......been on this planet 18 years, never effected me.

Destroy America?

How the hell can multiple cultures ruin a nation? We already have so many different cultures, just look at how this country started...it wasn't just one culture.

Its only going to destroy you if you let it.

AMERICA!!!! FREEDOM!!!! I love this country!!!!

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feedyourhead

i love all the people in america who think this way

and i'd like to add that i'd hate to see what would happen to the economy in the county that i'm from. one big factory and a LOT of hispanic immigrants (legal and illegal). sure. lets take the majority of workers out of the only factory in the entire county and just see how that plays out. as much as people hate to admit it, we need the hispanic work force in our country. immigration has affected me in a large way. my father doesn't even work in the factory (it's a meat processing plant), but if it got shut down his job would be gone-zo (he's a hog buyer).

vern

What way?