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Buzzby · 03-18-2008, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viper420

And with the largest army in the world at their command, get ready for a blood bath. When the media pulls out or is forced out just watch the bullets fly.

And watch most of the world pull out of the Olympics. The Chinese will look pretty silly if they hold an Olympics and nobody shows up except their client states. That's precisely why these protests are taking place now, when they'll have the greatest effect. Chinese attempts to shut down reporters and the Internet have only made them look worse in the eyes of the world.

Buzzby · 03-21-2008, 08:23 PM

Today, Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, appeared on-stage with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, supported Tibetan autonomy, and chastised the Chinese government for its behavior. No one thought that a member of the US government would speak out because we don't want to annoy our Chinese trading partners. I'm very glad that Ms. Pelosi defied that expectation.

As much as I hate to say it, if there hadn't been violent demonstrations and deadly-force response, the plight of the Tibetan people would not now be before the eyes of the world. Those who died are martyrs to freedom. I hope that someday they will be recognized as such.

Long live His Holiness the Dalai Lama! Freedom to the Tibetan people! Down with Chinese cultural genocide! Boycott the Beijing Olympics!

Buzzby · 03-21-2008, 08:32 PM

Germany Urges China To Open Up On Tibet
Erik Kirschbaum | Reuters | 03/21/2008

BERLIN, March 21 (Reuter) - China should let the world know what is happening in Tibet and the Olympic host is only hurting itself by denying access to foreign observers, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said on Friday.

Steinmeier said that China, which seeks political stability, and Tibet, which wants to protect its cultural identity, should find common ground to avert further bloodshed.

Relations between China and Germany chilled after Chancellor Angela Merkel in September became the first German chancellor to meet with Tibet's spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, whom China views as a separatist.

Following months of secret diplomacy led by Steinmeier Beijing and Berlin said in January ties had returned to normal.

"The German government's unequivocal message to China is: show clarity!" Steinmeier said in an interview for Saturday's Bild newspaper.

"We want to know exactly what is going on in Tibet," he said, adding he will speak to his Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi on the telephone this weekend.

"China is only hurting itself by preventing foreign observers from seeing what is going on."

China's crackdown on anti-government protests in Tibet -- which it says were orchestrated by the Dalai Lama -- has drawn sharp international criticism and clouded preparations for the Beijing Olympics in August.

The Tibetan spiritual leader has denied encouraging the violent protests in Tibet, the largest in almost 20 years.

China says 13 "innocent civilians" died in anti-Chinese riots last week in Tibet's capital, Lhasa, after police broke up earlier peaceful protests led by monks. Exiled Tibetans say as many as 100 Tibets have died.

China has barred foreign reporters from Lhasa and from parts of Sichuan, Gansu and Qinghai provinces that have also seen unrest, in some cases detaining crews and escorting them out.

The Dalai Lama, who fled Tibet in 1959, says he is against the violence and only wants greater autonomy for his homeland.

The unrest has alarmed China, keen to look its best in the run-up to the Aug. 8-24 Olympic Games in Beijing when it hopes to show the world it has arrived as a world power.

"The Tibetans want to protect their cultural identity and China wants political stability -- both sides have to move towards each other for that," said Steinmeier.

Steinmeier said it would be up to Beijing to decide what happens next when he was asked whether Western political leaders would be able to travel to the Olympics with a clear conscience. He suggested the 1936 Berlin Olympics was not a good role model.

The Berlin Olympics were used by the Nazis to show off Germany to the world while the suppression of Jews and others was kept away from the spotlight.

"It's in China's own best interest that the Olympics are a success. One thing ought to be clear: Olympics Games are a lot different now than 80 years ago. Having glittering events for TV while there is turmoil in your own backyard won't work any more.

"Any country hosting Olympic Games has to allow thousands of journalists in. Nothing can be swept under the carpet any more."

Viper420 · 03-21-2008, 09:50 PM

Buzzby, you and I both know that China isn't going to give up Tibet. I can only imagine the pay back that will head towards Tibet IF the Olympics is screwed up.

**dedbr** · 03-21-2008, 10:19 PM

I hope this has opened peoples eyes to who we are dealing with here. These are the people who are into repression. It's a government policy to run those over with tanks that disagree. Why do we think these people are any different now than they were twenty years ago? Communist repression is still a big part of their playbook, and they do use it. Armed revolt is the only chance for the Tibetans, and that would be an exercise in futlity.

I don't think we should deal with these stupid bastards, ("I like that phrase..

) and still think it's a big fuck-up to deal with them period until their concerns for their people far outweighs ther concern about preserving a failed government system like communism.......

Some Where In Ded Land....Free Tibet................

Buzzby · 03-21-2008, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viper420

Buzzby, you and I both know that China isn't going to give up Tibet. I can only imagine the pay back that will head towards Tibet IF the Olympics is screwed up.

China has to exist on the world stage. Their human rights abuses have repercussions. It would benefit the Chinese government not at all to "take revenge" on Tibet.

I don't think that any realist expects China to "give up Tibet". That's not what HHDL is asking for. He merely wants the Tibetan Autonomous Region to be truly autonomous.

Trocisp · 03-21-2008, 11:00 PM

I don't know if it's been said, but I still don't think that HHDL should just be "given" Tibet back.

I not saying we should force a democratic government on them, but I am am saying we should ask them what they want. Is it most likely (by far) that they'll choose HHDL to lead their country? Yes. But we should still ask them, because just assuming would do no good to anyone.

Darkflan · 03-21-2008, 11:33 PM

Really feel like I can't really do anything sitting here. I remember learning about how the Chinese teach in Tibetan schools their " The Peoples Glorious Nation of China Glorious History" And that Tibetan history is just a myth.

To bad a deal couldn't be cut.Let china mine the minerals, but just leave the people alone.

But as Buzzby said, The reason the minerals hadn't been mined was because it would be against their religious beliefs. I guess this wouldn't work.

I guess I wont be watching the Olympics, although I never watch them anyways.

**dedbr** · 03-21-2008, 11:52 PM

These people will never change, will they.....It just goes on and on, censorship so they can use whatever means to quell the protest. If we have any honer, we should boycott the olympics and urge all of our neighboring countries to do the sam thimg....

Some Where In Ded Land...........China

**Hashishi** · 03-22-2008, 12:28 AM

Here's a good cover-all from my favourite source:

Quote:

Tibet rises up against decades of oppression
3-18-'07 | SWP | by Charlie Hore

Tibet was rocked by its biggest uprising for almost 20 years this week as protesters fought running battles against police. China’s rulers responded by sealing off the province from the media and instituting a brutal crackdown.

The riots and protests that have erupted in Tibet this week are the product of decades of national oppression.

Early last week, Buddhist monks from the main monasteries in Lhasa, Tibet’s capital, led essentially peaceful demonstrations to mark the anniversary of a failed uprising in 1959.

They were met by thousands of armed police, and as the demonstrations escalated the police opened fire. Protesters fought back with rocks and iron bars, setting fire to many Chinese-owned businesses.

By last weekend the protesters were in control of the heart of Lhasa. Tibetan exiles claimed that the police had shot at least 80 people. The Chinese government flooded the city with troops and armoured cars.

There were also non-violent demonstrations in Shigatse, Tibet’s second city, and in the town of Xiahe in the north-western province of Gansu.

Tibetan exile websites have also reported protests in the Chinese provinces of Qinghai and Sichuan, which border Tibet.

All three provinces are part of “historic” Tibet and have substantial Tibetan populations.

The last time there were mass protests on this scale was March 1989, when Buddhist monks led protests that were violently attacked. Protesters managed to hold the centre of Lhasa for three days before a vicious crackdown killed hundreds of people.

Anniversary

The protests today seem to be on an even larger scale, although it is probable that there is no common organisation behind them. All started by marking the anniversary of 1959, which has become a rallying point for Tibetan nationalism.

Before 1953 Tibet was a monarchy ruled by the Dalai Lama. It was a desperately poor and unequal country, with the majority of the population working as serfs for big landowners.

The Chinese army invaded in 1953, and at first collaborated with the Dalai Lama and the landowners. But as the Chinese army took ever greater control over Tibet, it provoked a series of revolts.

These culminated in the March 1959 uprising. The Chinese army responded with widespread repression, forcing some 50,000 Tibetan people to flee into India with the Dalai Lama.

China imposed a colonial regime on Tibet. In the early 1960s there was widespread famine as the government banned traditional crops and tried to make peasants grow cereals unsuited to Tibet’s altitude.

Shortly afterwards, during the Cultural Revolution, there were attacks on Tibetan cultural and religious institutions. People were attacked in the streets for wearing traditional clothes.

The repression in Tibet has partially eased since Mao Zedong’s death in 1976. China’s economic boom has led to new industries and a major boom in tourism. Last year the first rail link opened between Tibet and China.

But the economic growth has passed by most Tibetans. Chinese people and other ethnic minorities have taken most of the new jobs created – which is one reason why they were targeted during the recent rioting.

In the countryside, the government is carrying out a massive relocation project – one in ten Tibetans was forcibly rehoused last year.

Although the new housing is an improvement on the old, the communities being uprooted are given no choice in the matter. In the process, increasing numbers of people are forced off the land to find labouring work in the cities.

The riots in Tibet could hardly have come at a worse time for the Chinese government. As part of the preparations for the Olympics in August, the Olympic flame was due to be carried through Lhasa in June.

Olympics

China’s rulers want to use the Olympics to show how China has become a major world power – and are desperate to avoid any exposure of the ugly realities of China’s growth.

They now face the dilemma of either having the torch relayed behind a massive military presence, or risking further pro-independence demonstrations.

In the short term, China has the firepower to win in Lhasa, and will probably be able to impose a media blackout on its repression.

But the riots have given the pro-Tibetan independence movement a massive boost, and acted as a powerful reminder of China’s continuing occupation of Tibet.

Coming at the same time as the worst inflation figures for 12 years, the problems for China’s rulers are multiplying.

Quote:

After cities, China sinicizing rural Tibet
6-12-'07 | The Office of Tibet | by Pema Thinley

THE PRETEXT IS to enable small farmers and herders to have access to schools and jobs, as well as better health care and hygiene. The manifest objective, however, is to strengthen political control and to make rural Tibet look modern and therefore more presentable to the outside world. In a massive campaign that recalls the socialist engineering of an earlier era, the Chinese government has relocated some 250,000 Tibetans--nearly one-tenth of the population of "Tibet Autonomous Region" (TAR)--from scattered rural hamlets to new "socialist villages," ordering them to build new housing largely at their own expense and without their consent, said Tim Johnson of the McClatchy Washington Bureau’s Beijing Bureau in a report published May 6.

China calls the year-old project the "comfortable housing programme", with the new housing mostly located along main roads, sometimes only a mile from previous homes. The project comes ahead of an expected influx of millions of tourists in the run-up to next year's Summer Olympic Games to be held in Beijing.

Foreign reporters seem to have had a mixed luck in finding out the truth about the project. Johnson reports that Tibetans, including farmers interviewed in the village of Zengshol, said they were happy to be in better quarters than their primitive, ancestral homes of mud brick. The answer, given in the presence of intimidating Chinese officials, was only to be expected. Johnson found that the farmers did not look exactly happy, but were obviously reluctant to voice complaints. But he notes that in other villages, Chinese escorts prevented a visiting reporter from speaking with residents.

As a result of the new settlements, cookie-cutter houses, striking in their uniformity, now line the roads at regular intervals. The settlements vary in size but are mostly towns larger than the abandoned villages. The red flag of China flew atop every house.

Peasants are required to take out loans worth several thousand US dollars to pay for the houses, which cost an average of $6,000, even though annual rural incomes hover around $320 in this deeply impoverished region, New York-based Human Rights Watch earlier cited witnesses as saying in a report on the issue.

Johnson quoted Melvyn C Goldstein, a social anthropologist and expert on Tibet at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, USA, conducting research in the rural areas of Shigatse Prefecture, as saying, "I think it's phenomenally successful, more than I would've believed." However, in a letter May 8 to World Tibet Network News, Canada, Goldstein denies ever having made such a comment. Nevertheless, he does say the housing programme is part of the CCP's attempt to raise the standard of living of rural Tibetans and is also a part of the Western development programme initiated in 2000. He says the housing programme now underway is meant to encourage and financially assist villagers to build new houses. He says the government is giving grants, not loans, and the programme is popular in the areas he and his team are working and is voluntary. Nevertheless, these claims are totally at variance with the accounts of people who have escaped from Tibet, where villagers who criticize government policies, especially when speaking with foreigners, face punishment.

Besides, the project does raise other significant questions, including social resentment that China is supposed to be eager to quell in Tibet. "There seems to be a lot of dissatisfaction," the report quoted Robert Barnett, a Tibet expert at Columbia University, as saying. "It's a massive project of social--I don't want to call it engineering--but of forced, heavily regulated social change without normal safeguards of consensus and consultation."

The immediate problems created by the new housing include the absence of a place for keeping animals, the main source of the farmers’ livelihood, and the need to walk longer to reach their fields.

The report noted that there were vast sociological implications to the programme. The Chinese already almost totally control Tibet's cities; now the focus has shifted to the countryside. "The cities are a loss" as far as Tibetans are concerned, Goldstein has admitted. "The last hope is to keep the villages intact. If there's a battleground for Tibetan identity, it's in the rural areas." But on a reporter’s 11-day trip, said Johnson, the rural areas, at least in appearance, appeared to be already coming under ever greater Chinese control.

The Chinese news media have given almost no coverage to the forced relocation. China’s online Tibet news service Tibetinfor.com has been giving the false impression in its briefest of reports about it that the Tibetans were being given new, better houses entirely at state expense. The old homes were compulsorily pulled down. New York-based Human Rights Watch was the first to report on the re-housing scandal, based on interviews with Tibetans who had fled their occupied country.

Johnson said foreign reporters, under tight strictures that largely prevent them from travelling to Tibet except on once-a-year trips under Foreign Ministry guidance, risk being removed from the region if they openly interview people. His own report was prepared while undertaking tourism in Tibet.

Meanwhile, China’s online Tibet news service Tibetinfor.com (Title News) May 16 reported that 209 households in Lhasa will move into new houses at the end of Sep 2007.

03-21-2008, 08:23 PM	#22
Buzzby Buddhist Curmudgeon Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 13,613 Grams: 36,628.77 Groans: 26 Groaned at 34 Times in 29 Posts Thanks: 436 Thanked 2,795 Times in 1,468 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Nancy Pelosi Today, Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, appeared on-stage with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, supported Tibetan autonomy, and chastised the Chinese government for its behavior. No one thought that a member of the US government would speak out because we don't want to annoy our Chinese trading partners. I'm very glad that Ms. Pelosi defied that expectation. As much as I hate to say it, if there hadn't been violent demonstrations and deadly-force response, the plight of the Tibetan people would not now be before the eyes of the world. Those who died are martyrs to freedom. I hope that someday they will be recognized as such. Long live His Holiness the Dalai Lama! Freedom to the Tibetan people! Down with Chinese cultural genocide! Boycott the Beijing Olympics!

03-21-2008, 08:32 PM	#23
Buzzby Buddhist Curmudgeon Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 13,613 Grams: 36,628.77 Groans: 26 Groaned at 34 Times in 29 Posts Thanks: 436 Thanked 2,795 Times in 1,468 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Germany Urges China To Open Up On Tibet Germany Urges China To Open Up On Tibet Erik Kirschbaum \| Reuters \| 03/21/2008 BERLIN, March 21 (Reuter) - China should let the world know what is happening in Tibet and the Olympic host is only hurting itself by denying access to foreign observers, German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said on Friday. Steinmeier said that China, which seeks political stability, and Tibet, which wants to protect its cultural identity, should find common ground to avert further bloodshed. Relations between China and Germany chilled after Chancellor Angela Merkel in September became the first German chancellor to meet with Tibet's spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, whom China views as a separatist. Following months of secret diplomacy led by Steinmeier Beijing and Berlin said in January ties had returned to normal. "The German government's unequivocal message to China is: show clarity!" Steinmeier said in an interview for Saturday's Bild newspaper. "We want to know exactly what is going on in Tibet," he said, adding he will speak to his Chinese counterpart Yang Jiechi on the telephone this weekend. "China is only hurting itself by preventing foreign observers from seeing what is going on." China's crackdown on anti-government protests in Tibet -- which it says were orchestrated by the Dalai Lama -- has drawn sharp international criticism and clouded preparations for the Beijing Olympics in August. The Tibetan spiritual leader has denied encouraging the violent protests in Tibet, the largest in almost 20 years. China says 13 "innocent civilians" died in anti-Chinese riots last week in Tibet's capital, Lhasa, after police broke up earlier peaceful protests led by monks. Exiled Tibetans say as many as 100 Tibets have died. China has barred foreign reporters from Lhasa and from parts of Sichuan, Gansu and Qinghai provinces that have also seen unrest, in some cases detaining crews and escorting them out. The Dalai Lama, who fled Tibet in 1959, says he is against the violence and only wants greater autonomy for his homeland. The unrest has alarmed China, keen to look its best in the run-up to the Aug. 8-24 Olympic Games in Beijing when it hopes to show the world it has arrived as a world power. "The Tibetans want to protect their cultural identity and China wants political stability -- both sides have to move towards each other for that," said Steinmeier. Steinmeier said it would be up to Beijing to decide what happens next when he was asked whether Western political leaders would be able to travel to the Olympics with a clear conscience. He suggested the 1936 Berlin Olympics was not a good role model. The Berlin Olympics were used by the Nazis to show off Germany to the world while the suppression of Jews and others was kept away from the spotlight. "It's in China's own best interest that the Olympics are a success. One thing ought to be clear: Olympics Games are a lot different now than 80 years ago. Having glittering events for TV while there is turmoil in your own backyard won't work any more. "Any country hosting Olympic Games has to allow thousands of journalists in. Nothing can be swept under the carpet any more."

03-21-2008, 10:19 PM	#25
dedbr Domestic War Veteran Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 6,907 Grams: 46,821.10 Groans: 11 Groaned at 22 Times in 15 Posts Thanks: 2,455 Thanked 2,268 Times in 1,022 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I hope this has opened peoples eyes to who we are dealing with here. These are the people who are into repression. It's a government policy to run those over with tanks that disagree. Why do we think these people are any different now than they were twenty years ago? Communist repression is still a big part of their playbook, and they do use it. Armed revolt is the only chance for the Tibetans, and that would be an exercise in futlity. I don't think we should deal with these stupid bastards, ("I like that phrase..) and still think it's a big fuck-up to deal with them period until their concerns for their people far outweighs ther concern about preserving a failed government system like communism....... Some Where In Ded Land....Free Tibet................ __________________ Sometimes you can cut your own throat with your tongue..... So remember to check out our most wonderful Posting Guidelines!

03-21-2008, 11:52 PM	#29
dedbr Domestic War Veteran Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 6,907 Grams: 46,821.10 Groans: 11 Groaned at 22 Times in 15 Posts Thanks: 2,455 Thanked 2,268 Times in 1,022 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Chinese continue to dig a deeper hole for themselves... These people will never change, will they.....It just goes on and on, censorship so they can use whatever means to quell the protest. If we have any honer, we should boycott the olympics and urge all of our neighboring countries to do the sam thimg.... Some Where In Ded Land...........China Last edited by dedbr : 03-23-2008 at 09:51 AM.

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03-21-2008, 09:50 PM	#24
Viper420 Banned Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 843 Grams: 4,349.60 Groans: 6 Groaned at 64 Times in 40 Posts Thanks: 44 Thanked 130 Times in 115 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Buzzby, you and I both know that China isn't going to give up Tibet. I can only imagine the pay back that will head towards Tibet IF the Olympics is screwed up.

03-21-2008, 11:00 PM	#27
Trocisp Banned Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,937 Grams: 25,476.05 Groans: 20 Groaned at 26 Times in 20 Posts Thanks: 715 Thanked 1,173 Times in 770 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I don't know if it's been said, but I still don't think that HHDL should just be "given" Tibet back. I not saying we should force a democratic government on them, but I am am saying we should ask them what they want. Is it most likely (by *far*) that they'll choose HHDL to lead their country? Yes. But we should still ask them, because just assuming would do no good to anyone.

03-21-2008, 11:33 PM	#28
Darkflan Sr. Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 600 Grams: 4,679.17 Groans: 3 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post Thanks: 119 Thanked 150 Times in 102 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: -1.000%	Really feel like I can't really do anything sitting here. I remember learning about how the Chinese teach in Tibetan schools their " The Peoples Glorious Nation of China Glorious History" And that Tibetan history is just a myth. To bad a deal couldn't be cut.Let china mine the minerals, but just leave the people alone. But as Buzzby said, The reason the minerals hadn't been mined was because it would be against their religious beliefs. I guess this wouldn't work. I guess I wont be watching the Olympics, although I never watch them anyways.

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