Our Government would LIE to us? NO way!

**troublemaker_42** · 04-03-2009, 07:53 AM

AS some of you may know, I've had my doubts about the "90-95% of all guns in Mexico are traced back to the US" quote that has been ejaculated from the mouth of everyone from Hilary Clinton to Atty General William Holder, the BATFE, and every imaginable news source.( http://www.marijuana.com/politics/11...ml#post1056074 ) Here's the kicker...I was RIGHT. Its an entirely false statement, despite being repeated by those in the uppermost levels of our government. I wonder if the egg on the face is what caused Holder to say today in a news report that "no new changes in US gun laws" are palnned, when only days ago he was championing a ban on assault weapons? Remember kids, don't believe something just because someone seemingly important says it!!!! Our governemnt has lied to us before, and they certainly will again. Be it out of malice or ignorance, many politicans are content to parrot what they have been told, rather than actually verify that the info is correct. In this case, it was ignorance and an anti-gun agenda, IMO (Holder, Clinton, Fienstein, etc are all gun control advocates). Too bad they were all proven to be LIARS

The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S. - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com

Quote:

EXCLUSIVE: You've heard this shocking "fact" before -- on TV and radio, in newspapers, on the Internet and from the highest politicians in the land: 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States.

-- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said it to reporters on a flight to Mexico City.

-- CBS newsman Bob Schieffer referred to it while interviewing President Obama.

-- California Sen. Dianne Feinstein said at a Senate hearing: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico and used to shoot judges, police officers and mayors ... come from the United States."

-- William Hoover, assistant director for field operations at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, testified in the House of Representatives that "there is more than enough evidence to indicate that over 90 percent of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States."

There's just one problem with the 90 percent "statistic" and it's a big one:

It's just not true.

In fact, it's not even close. The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

"Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market," Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.

A Look at the Numbers

In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

'These Don't Come From El Paso'

Ed Head, a firearms instructor in Arizona who spent 24 years with the U.S. Border Patrol, recently displayed an array of weapons considered "assault rifles" that are similar to those recovered in Mexico, but are unavailable for sale in the U.S.

"These kinds of guns -- the auto versions of these guns -- they are not coming from El Paso," he said. "They are coming from other sources. They are brought in from Guatemala. They are brought in from places like China. They are being diverted from the military. But you don't get these guns from the U.S."

Some guns, he said, "are legitimately shipped to the government of Mexico, by Colt, for example, in the United States. They are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way -- the fully auto versions -- they are not smuggled in across the river."

Many of the fully automatic weapons that have been seized in Mexico cannot be found in the U.S., but they are not uncommon in the Third World.

The Mexican government said it has seized 2,239 grenades in the last two years -- but those grenades and the rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) are unavailable in U.S. gun shops. The ones used in an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey in October and a TV station in January were made in South Korea. Almost 70 similar grenades were seized in February in the bottom of a truck entering Mexico from Guatemala.

"Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semi-automatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California," according to a report in the Los Angeles Times.

Boatloads of Weapons

So why would the Mexican drug cartels, which last year grossed between $17 billion and $38 billion, bother buying single-shot rifles, and force thousands of unknown "straw" buyers in the U.S. through a government background check, when they can buy boatloads of fully automatic M-16s and assault rifles from China, Israel or South Africa?

Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government, says the drug cartels are using the Guatemalan border to move black market weapons. Some are left over from the Central American wars the United States helped fight; others, like the grenades and launchers, are South Korean, Israeli and Spanish. Some were legally supplied to the Mexican government; others were sold by corrupt military officers or officials.

The exaggeration of United States "responsibility" for the lawlessness in Mexico extends even beyond the "90-percent" falsehood -- and some Second Amendment activists believe it's designed to promote more restrictive gun-control laws in the U.S.

In a remarkable claim, Auturo Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador to the U.S., said Mexico seizes 2,000 guns a day from the United States -- 730,000 a year. That's a far cry from the official statistic from the Mexican attorney general's office, which says Mexico seized 29,000 weapons in all of 2007 and 2008.

Chris Cox, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, blames the media and anti-gun politicians in the U.S. for misrepresenting where Mexican weapons come from.

"Reporter after politician after news anchor just disregards the truth on this," Cox said. "The numbers are intentionally used to weaken the Second Amendment."

"The predominant source of guns in Mexico is Central and South America. You also have Russian, Chinese and Israeli guns. It's estimated that over 100,000 soldiers deserted the army to work for the drug cartels, and that ignores all the police. How many of them took their weapons with them?"

But Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, called the "90 percent" issue a red herring and said that it should not detract from the effort to stop gun trafficking into Mexico.

"Let's do what we can with what we know," he said. "We know that one hell of a lot of firearms come from the United States because our gun market is wide open."

KillerWeed420 · 04-03-2009, 11:06 PM

My personal opinion is they need more guns down there. The civilian population needs to arm itself from drug cartles and also corrupt police and army officials.

**goodgirl** · 04-03-2009, 11:34 PM

The government doesn't lie to people....people lie to people.

**troublemaker_42** · 04-06-2009, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodgirl

The government doesn't lie to people....people lie to people.

When those peoeple are appointed to government positions, and speak on behalf of their respective branches of government, is it not one and the same? This was a lie repeated by our Secretary of State, the BATFE, Senators, etc. These people ARE our government, and when the lie to us, its no different than the government itself lying. Semantics aside, these individuals were speaking as representatives of our elected government, and they maniplulated data in such a way calling it a lie is the only accurate way of describing it. Therefore, the government lied to me as far as I'm concerned, and the fact they haven't clarified the staement since its been proven to be BULLSHIT leads me to believe they are STILL lying to us. So much for a transparent government.... Only the lies and faces have changed....otherwise its business as usual in Washington.

Quote:

I don't understand why the media is hammering this so hard. Hasn't the US been known for selling, trading or giving arms to other nations/people? Look at the Iran thing back in the Regan administration. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but why all the surprise now? Because it's hitting a little close to home?

You're thinking of government sanctioned arms deals. This situaiton refers...SUPPOSEDLY (it's since been proven false, if you'd read the article I posted) to the fact Mexican drug cartels are using US firearm RETAIL outlets and gun shows to outfit their criminal forces. We're talking about people buying a few guns at a time from either gun shows or retail outlets, and sneaking them into Mexico to sell to the cartels, not government sponsored arms deals. However, its completely irrelavent, since only 17% of seized firearms can be traced back to the US, not the 90% previously claimed by the government. Too, most of the weapons seized in Mexico, by and large, ARE NOT EVEN AVAILBLE ON THE CIVILIAN MARKET IN THE USA.

**goodgirl** · 04-06-2009, 01:23 PM

"These people ARE our government, and when the lie to us, its no different than the government itself lying."

No, the government is a tool....true at the moment those people are the people that are in charge of that tool but it removes nothing from the fact that they are not the government themselves. We are the government....they are merely the current people holding that particular weapon.

I did not mean to belittle your outrage over this issue as it is appears to be quite justified and I do not have any particularly strong feelings about gun control one way or another. I have read both sides over the years and quite frankly have never really reached my own conclusions on the matter....or rather I have reached different conclusions on different aspects of it and can't really say "pro or con" to the whole issue.

Heck, I didn't even mean to get involved in this discussion I just have a bit of a problem with the treating of the government as a separate entity capable of lies or truth. My problem is mostly in the fact that we can fight the lies told by people, or argue with the people themselves....when however we say that "our government" has lied we are merely whistling in the wind.

I believe in accountability for ones actions and when we begin to rant about the government instead of the individual politicians we reduce their responsibility by shifting the blame to the government of which they merely represent.

**troublemaker_42** · 04-07-2009, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goodgirl

I did not mean to belittle your outrage over this issue as it is appears to be quite justified .

Damn right it is

I understand what you are saying as well, but when individuals act as the voice for their respective branches of government, and it happens across the board almost with this administration and this particular lie, its hard to blame the countless individuials spouting the lie as responsible, and not the administration as a whole. Our attorney general and secretary of state, argueably two of the highest ranking federal positions, rattled this "fact" off without ANYONE bothering to check it for truthfulness (or if they did, and discovered the truth, they realized it wasn't going to help their case in any way being so insignificant). Its hard not to blame "the government" when it appears this lie was basically for all purposes sanctioned by this administration.
The time line surrounding this fact is what makes it INCREDIBLY suspect in my book

Fact-Pre-Election, Obama made it no secret he wanted assault weapons banned, and stated so publically many times and in print on his website

Fact- Atty General Eric Holder is a gun control advocate, who also supported Obama's ban plan, and weeks ago, stated so publicly

Fact- , Mexico became a focus, and suddenly, this "fact" started making its way through the government and media. "We've GOT to ban them, for Mexico's sake, because we suupply 90% of the weapons they use to kill each other"" became the rallying cry for everyone from the "Violence Policy Center" (formerly Handgun Control Inc.) to Diannne Feinstein, to Hilary Clinton to yet again, Atty General Holder.

Fact- 65 Democratic Congressmen wrote Eric Holder, stating they were deadset against supporting such a ban as they felt it was an infringement of rights (which would make a majority combined with the republicans who also disagreed with the need for such a ban)

Fact- Holder suddenly revereses his decision the same day the Fox News report comes out, saying that "he doesn't foresee a need for additonal gun laws" in direct contridiction of what he said approximately 3 weeks before.

THIS is why I'm outraged. This was more than a mere misunderstanding of the facts. This was a case of the governemnt trying to pull a fast one on a largely ignorant (on the issue) public. ONLY when their lies were exposed did the talk of banning assault weapons take a backseat. In this case, I guess there WAS "transparancy in government" in that the agenda was clearly seen through the lies(at least by anyone daring to take a look). There will certianly be more talk of such a ban....as soon as the administration finds other facts or scenarios to manipulate to get what they want.

LowRider · 04-04-2009, 02:33 AM

like i said before on another post, most guns come from the south of there border NOT OURS

un4givin0578 · 04-04-2009, 11:09 AM

I don't understand why the media is hammering this so hard. Hasn't the US been known for selling, trading or giving arms to other nations/people? Look at the Iran thing back in the Regan administration. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but why all the surprise now? Because it's hitting a little close to home?

asmith09 · 04-06-2009, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troublemaker_42

AS some of you may know, I've had my doubts about the "90-95% of all guns in Mexico are traced back to the US" quote that has been ejaculated from the mouth of everyone from Hilary Clinton to Atty General William Holder, the BATFE, and every imaginable news source.( http://www.marijuana.com/politics/11...ml#post1056074 ) Here's the kicker...I was RIGHT. Its an entirely false statement, despite being repeated by those in the uppermost levels of our government. I wonder if the egg on the face is what caused Holder to say today in a news report that "no new changes in US gun laws" are palnned, when only days ago he was championing a ban on assault weapons? Remember kids, don't believe something just because someone seemingly important says it!!!! Our governemnt has lied to us before, and they certainly will again. Be it out of malice or ignorance, many politicans are content to parrot what they have been told, rather than actually verify that the info is correct. In this case, it was ignorance and an anti-gun agenda, IMO (Holder, Clinton, Fienstein, etc are all gun control advocates). Too bad they were all proven to be LIARS

The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S. - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com

So you're saying that all of these other media sources and government officials are now WRONG because FOX News says so? Lol.

Obviously, the government lies to us, but so does the media.

**troublemaker_42** · 04-06-2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asmith09

So you're saying that all of these other media sources and government officials are now WRONG because FOX News says so? Lol.

Obviously, the government lies to us, but so does the media.

Fox came with facts, and showed where the "90%" claim came from...the government and the other media simply parroted a convenient sound byte, with zero regard to the truth. Just because FOX news reported it doesn't make it the least bit false. No other media outlet bothered to verify the false claims, making them every bit the liars the government officials who spouted it are. You can attack the source all you want, but in this case, it certainly doesn't make them any less credible. They showed where the figure came from....other media outlets simply reported it as fact, with no verification whatsoever of the data.. You can attack Fox if you want to, but they are the ONLY media outlet that bothered to expose this as the lie it is. If you think fox is somehow lying or whatever your post is trying to claim, back it up with facts. Fox news can...but can you? Yes, I made the claim that the government and media lied to us. I however backed that claim up with facts. If you feel differently, do you have any info to support your opinion? i didn't think so.

Grams Awarded to troublemaker_42 for this Post
Date	User	Comment	Amount
04-07-2009	THC Fiend	Didn't need none to tell me that neither!	42.00
04-04-2009	LowRider	sorry but i hit my max on pts. Knew it was false all along didn't need none to tell me that	145.43

Grams Awarded to troublemaker_42 for this Post
Date	User	Comment	Amount
04-07-2009	THC Fiend	Didn't need none to tell me that neither!	42.00
04-04-2009	LowRider	sorry but i hit my max on pts. Knew it was false all along didn't need none to tell me that	145.43

04-03-2009, 11:34 PM	#3
goodgirl Incognito Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 1,868 Grams: 15,443.04 Thanks: 1,520 Thanked 2,206 Times in 698 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	The government doesn't lie to people....people lie to people. __________________ "No one is free when others are oppressed."

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