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MickityMike · 02-01-2005, 11:40 PM

Inspired by a fellow poster that I have a certain amount of (grudging) respect for, I truly believe that one should never stop questioning.

So, along that same vein, I wonder... What if Bush has it right in Iraq? Apparently I’m not alone. So does Mark Brown, anti-war columnist at the Chicago Sun-Times:

Quote:

What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?

Maybe you're like me and have opposed the Iraq war since before the shooting started -- not to the point of joining any peace protests, but at least letting people know where you stood.

You didn't change your mind when our troops swept quickly into Baghdad or when you saw the rabble that celebrated the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue, figuring that little had been accomplished and that the tough job still lay ahead.

Despite your misgivings, you didn't demand the troops be brought home immediately afterward, believing the United States must at least try to finish what it started to avoid even greater bloodshed. And while you cheered Saddam's capture, you couldn't help but thinking I-told-you-so in the months that followed as the violence continued to spread and the death toll mounted.

By now, you might have even voted against George Bush -- a second time -- to register your disapproval.

But after watching Sunday's election in Iraq and seeing the first clear sign that freedom really may mean something to the Iraqi people, you have to be asking yourself: What if it turns out Bush was right, and we were wrong?

It's hard to swallow, isn't it?

Americans cross own barrier

If you fit the previously stated profile, I know you're fighting the idea, because I am, too. And if you were with the president from the start, I've already got your blood boiling.

For those who've been in the same boat with me, we don't need to concede the point just yet. There's a long way to go. But I think we have to face the possibility.

I won't say that it had never occurred to me previously, but it's never gone through my mind as strongly as when I watched the television coverage from Iraq that showed long lines of people risking their lives by turning out to vote, honest looks of joy on so many of their faces.

Some CNN guest expert was opining Monday that the Iraqi people crossed a psychological barrier by voting and getting a taste of free choice (setting aside the argument that they only did so under orders from their religious leaders).

I think it's possible that some of the American people will have crossed a psychological barrier as well.

Deciding democracy's worth

On the other side of that barrier is a concept some of us have had a hard time swallowing:

Maybe the United States really can establish a peaceable democratic government in Iraq, and if so, that would be worth something.

Would it be worth all the money we've spent? Certainly.

Would it be worth all the lives that have been lost? That's the more difficult question, and while I reserve judgment on that score until such a day arrives, it seems probable that history would answer yes to that as well.

I don't want to get carried away in the moment.

Going to war still sent so many terrible messages to the world.

Most of the obstacles to success in Iraq are all still there, the ones that have always led me to believe that we would eventually be forced to leave the country with our tail tucked between our legs. (I've maintained from the start that if you were impressed by the demonstrations in the streets of Baghdad when we arrived, wait until you see how they celebrate our departure, no matter the circumstances.)

In and of itself, the voting did nothing to end the violence. The forces trying to regain the power they have lost -- and the outside elements supporting them -- will be no less determined to disrupt our efforts and to drive us out.

Somebody still has to find a way to bring the Sunnis into the political process before the next round of elections at year's end. The Iraqi government still must develop the capacity to protect its people.

And there seems every possibility that this could yet end in civil war the day we leave or with Iraq becoming an Islamic state every bit as hostile to our national interests as was Saddam.

Penance could be required

But on Sunday, we caught a glimpse of the flip side. We could finally see signs that a majority of the Iraqi people perceive something to be gained from this brave new world we are forcing on them.

Instead of making the elections a further expression of "Yankee Go Home," their participation gave us hope that all those soldiers haven't died in vain.

Obviously, I'm still curious to see if Bush is willing to allow the Iraqis to install a government that is free to kick us out or to oppose our other foreign policy efforts in the region.

So is the rest of the world.

For now, though, I think we have to cut the president some slack about a timetable for his exit strategy.

If it turns out Bush was right all along, this is going to require some serious penance.

Maybe I'd have to vote Republican in 2008.

Just food for thought, and I surely don't think that this will change any minds – but at least there seems like there’s a little bit for all sides to latch onto in this article. Although I do think it's a pretty good sign as regards Iraq when we start to see editorials like this one, especially from opponents of the war.

Niteshift · 02-01-2005, 11:51 PM

I'll applaud him for having the integrity to write the piece.

Zilos · 02-02-2005, 12:50 AM

Good for him, but it im sure it doesn't change most peoples views on the war, and the decision bush made to invade Iraq. There are many ways of doing things and reaching a goal, Bush did it with war, which many people feel was the wrong way.

Now, it ain't over yet, not even close, the Iraqi's didn't even know who they were voting for until they got to the polls... hell, we can't even get it right with our own voting systems right (good ol' Florida!), how are they gonna make theirs work?

But ya, I guess it's a step forward, even if 10 steps were takin' back before the step forward.

-Peace

Murdock · 02-02-2005, 01:24 AM

As a former opponant of this war I am ashamed and embarrassed that I did oppose freedom.

To see the happiness and joy on the faces of Iraqis and to see the overall picture of refoms in the middle east which at the beginning would have been nearly if not completely impossible and beyond comprehension.. President Bush is a Visionary, he is seeing a more complete and peaceful and modernized Middle East.. While most of the rest of the world is seeing the short term losses.

It's all beginning to make sense and fall into place. The Global War on Terror is being won, one battle at a time and it's an amazing thing to observe.

Hiz Highness · 02-02-2005, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murdock

As a former opponant of this war I am ashamed and embarrassed that I did oppose freedom.

If freedom is what you were opposing you should feel ashamed. I opposed sacrificing over a thousand american lives and hundreds of billions of american dollars to "free" a people who didn't ask for our help.

I opposed having our men killed for bogus reasons offered by a lying (or 'misinformed' if you're an optomist) administration.

I opposed the focus of the War on Terror being shifted from the murderers that hit us on 9/11 to the tin-pot dictator we had safely contained in Bahgdad.

But yeah, if you opposed the war because you opposed 'freedom' you should be ashamed. That would be the stupidest reason I've ever heard for opposing the war.

-HH

Puffer · 02-02-2005, 01:43 AM

One election does not a democracy make. Only time and future elections will determine whether Iraqis want democracy badly enough to hang onto it. As for freedom, why is America forcing it on the rest of the world while it denies its own citizens of it here at home?

goldberry · 02-02-2005, 02:07 AM

Regardless of what happens Bush will never be right about misleading the people so he could have his war.

Had he said from the getgo lets go into Iraq so we can "spread democracy" (or whatever the current excuse is) then that would have been a different story, but he lied so he could have his way and nothing is going to make that right.

Murdock · 02-02-2005, 02:16 AM

Quote:

If freedom is what you were opposing you should feel ashamed. I opposed sacrificing over a thousand american lives and hundreds of billions of american dollars to "free" a people who didn't ask for our help.

So you didn't mind liberating them without a cost? Unfortuantly life isn't that way, never has been never will be. So what you're saying is that you opposed freedom for the Iraqi people.

Quote:

I opposed having our men killed for bogus reasons offered by a lying (or 'misinformed' if you're an optomist) administration.

But the end result is a Democratically reformed middle east.. again you opposed freedom and still do oppose freedom for the Iraqi people.

Quote:

I opposed the focus of the War on Terror being shifted from the murderers that hit us on 9/11 to the tin-pot dictator we had safely contained in Bahgdad.

That is false, we still have thousands of troops in Afghanistan but we're at a stalemate there.. We cannot violate Pakistani Soverignty.

Quote:

But yeah, if you opposed the war because you opposed 'freedom' you should be ashamed. That would be the stupidest reason I've ever heard for opposing the war.

By opposing the war, you are by default opposing freedom, ergo without the war, Iraq would still be under the Dictatorship of Saddam Hussein. Today they are a fledgling Democracy.

goldberry · 02-02-2005, 02:36 AM

Quote:

But the end result is a Democratically reformed middle east.. again you opposed freedom and still do oppose freedom for the Iraqi people.

The mideast has been democratically reformed as a result of this war.

What I oppose is people being lied to when they make a decision on something as crucial as war. How do you think those people who only supported the war because of WMD feel, especially if they have loved ones in Iraq? (if you're only going to reply to 1 thing make it that question)

Under what conditions are you willing to send your kids to Iraq? For you spreading democracy may be good enough, for others it may not be. Either way, everyone has a right to make their own informed decision on something as important as that. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer. What is wrong is when people are lied to in order to influence their decision.

Hiz Highness · 02-02-2005, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murdock

So you didn't mind liberating them without a cost?

I don't feel responsible for dictating what governments the rest of the globe may or may not have. The problem with you is that your can't conceive of freedom without democracy, or democracy without freedom.

Quote:

Unfortuantly life isn't that way, never has been never will be. So what you're saying is that you opposed freedom for the Iraqi people.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. That's the pin-headed claim you're trying to make so that you can paint everyone in the anti-invasion movement as freedom haters. It's a lame and transparent attempt, easily seen through by any being capable of 'free' thought.

Quote:

But the end result is a Democratically reformed middle east.. again you opposed freedom and still do oppose freedom for the Iraqi people.

Not at all. The fact that you would draw such a conclusion exposes the fact that your intent is to simply insult anyone who opposed this invasion. Only one person in this thread has claimed to oppose freedom, and that person is you.

Quote:

We cannot violate Pakistani Soverignty.

Really? We could violate Iraqi sovereignty. Do you oppose Pakistani freedom too? I guess so. Why do you hate freedom so much?

[quotw]By opposing the war, you are by default opposing freedom[/quote]

That's pure ignorance. The fact that you think we all have to support the war or oppose freedom shows that you oppose the freedom of dissent. You just hate all kinds of freedom, don't you?

Well, at least you're up front with your opposition and hatred of freedom. I love freedom myself, and will keep exercising mine.

-HH

02-01-2005, 11:51 PM	#2
Niteshift L.E.O. in Good Standing Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 6,432 Grams: 2,421.62 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I'll applaud him for having the integrity to write the piece. __________________ A burning desire for social justice is never a substitute for knowing what you're talking about. -Thomas Sowell Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is muzzle flash.

02-02-2005, 12:50 AM	#3
Zilos Seasoned Activist Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 1,111 Grams: 2,539.82 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Good for him, but it im sure it doesn't change most peoples views on the war, and the decision bush made to invade Iraq. There are many ways of doing things and reaching a goal, Bush did it with war, which many people feel was the wrong way. Now, it ain't over yet, not even close, the Iraqi's didn't even know who they were voting for until they got to the polls... hell, we can't even get it right with our own voting systems right (good ol' Florida!), how are they gonna make theirs work? But ya, I guess it's a step forward, even if 10 steps were takin' back before the step forward. -Peace __________________ :: Posting Guidelines :: 420 Lounge :: Hemp Cultivation :: Myths :: Canadian Laws :: U.S. Laws :: Recipes ::

02-02-2005, 01:43 AM	#6
Puffer Jr. Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 184 Grams: 1,267.90 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	One election does not a democracy make. Only time and future elections will determine whether Iraqis want democracy badly enough to hang onto it. As for freedom, why is America forcing it on the rest of the world while it denies its own citizens of it here at home? __________________ Just say "know" to marijuana!

02-02-2005, 02:07 AM	#7
goldberry Sr. Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 894 Grams: 2,339.30 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Regardless of what happens Bush will never be right about misleading the people so he could have his war. Had he said from the getgo lets go into Iraq so we can "spread democracy" (or whatever the current excuse is) then that would have been a different story, but he lied so he could have his way and nothing is going to make that right. __________________ "Is our children learning?" George W. Bush

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02-02-2005, 01:24 AM	#4
Murdock Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 635 Grams: 3,183.57 Groans: 0 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post Thanks: 7 Thanked 15 Times in 10 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	As a former opponant of this war I am ashamed and embarrassed that I did oppose freedom. To see the happiness and joy on the faces of Iraqis and to see the overall picture of refoms in the middle east which at the beginning would have been nearly if not completely impossible and beyond comprehension.. President Bush is a Visionary, he is seeing a more complete and peaceful and modernized Middle East.. While most of the rest of the world is seeing the short term losses. It's all beginning to make sense and fall into place. The Global War on Terror is being won, one battle at a time and it's an amazing thing to observe.

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