Political Incivility?

MickityMike · 02-06-2005, 07:13 PM

http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/2005...-goldberg.html

Quote:

Cole Versus Goldberg

Glenn Reynolds points out that Jonah Goldberg and Juan Cole are exchanging barbed comments. Cole has asserted that Goldberg is a no-nothing.

Jonah Goldberg knows absolutely nothing about Iraq. I wonder if he has even ever read a single book on Iraq, much less written one. He knows no Arabic. He has never lived in an Arab country. He can't read Iraqi newspapers or those of Iraq's neighbors. He knows nothing whatsoever about Shiite Islam, the branch of the religion to which a majority of Iraqis adheres. Why should we pretend that Jonah Goldberg's opinion on the significance and nature of the elections in Iraq last Sunday matters?

Goldberg retorts that Cole doesn't know how to read.

I don't think I made the allegation that Saddam had nuclear weapons "over and over again" on CNN or anywhere else. My point was actually the reverse. Iraq didn't have nuclear weapons and therefore we could remove Saddam at comparatively low risk -- an option we didn't, and don't, have with North Korea. Also, I wrote columns more than once criticizing the effort to boil the whole thing down to the WMDs issue.

Of course, the validity of arguments from authority have been questioned. If predictive performance is the criterion against which to judge the thinking of Goldberg versus Cole, it is not clear that Cole is Goldberg's superior. For example, Cole recently predicted that the Iraqi elections would be a joke:

"These elections are a joke," said Juan Cole, a professor of modern Middle East history at the University of Michigan. "The Bush administration has created the worst possible advertisement for democracy because the perception across the Middle East is that democracy means you get a country where everything is out of control," he said.

In an ideal world the intellectual dispute between Cole and Goldberg would simply be settled by events. However, Cole has taken things to the next level by asserting that Jonah Goldberg is a physical coward for not volunteering for combat despite the fact that he is 'pro-war'.

Goldberg helped send nearly 1500 brave Americans to their deaths and helped maim over 10,000, not to mention all the innocent Iraqi civilians he helped get killed. He helped dragoon 140,000 US troops in Iraq. And he does not have the courage of his convictions. His excuse is that he couldn't afford to take the pay cut!

What is Goldberg going to say to the tens of thousands of reservists he helped send to Iraq, who are losing their mortgages and small businesses and have been kidnapped for 18 months at a time (not what they thought they were signing up for) by Rumsfeld? "Well guys, thanks for carrying out the policy I wanted to see, and for putting your own little girls into penury. I'd have loved to help out, but my little girl is more important than yours and besides, I like a good meal and I hear you only get MREs."

Cole's assertion is not, strictly speaking, any kind of advance on his previous argument from authority, unless it is to broaden the definition of 'authority' to include a 'moral authority' with which he feels better supplied. But Cole's white feather is really a period; the punctuation mark the British call a 'full stop'. As in 'from this point the conversation can go no further: full stop'.

In truth, the ground for civilized debate has been shrinking progressively from September 11. The sharp animosity that has sprung up between the Left and Conservatives may be a kind of emergent behavior arising from the wide-ranging changes that have taken place since that fateful day. One could hardly expect that the end of the Cold War, the decline of Europe, the ascendancy of India and China, the collapse of the UN and the advent of terrorism would leave political relations between Left and Right unchanged. But it was the declining vigor of Marxist thought coupled with new conservative ideas that poured the most fuel on the flames. Discourse between Left and Right could only remain civil for so long as Conservatives remained meek or had no counter-pulpit. The weakening of the traditional media and the stresses caused by war have created a kind of 'play' in the system which now allow unchained weights to crash about. In that sense, there is nothing surprising about Juan Cole calling Jonah Goldberg names. One gets the feeling he has been calling people names all his professional life; and I think Mr. Goldberg can handle it. What has changed is that, with the decline of the MSM, there is nothing which prevents incivility from becoming a two-way street. And I'm not sure either the Left or the total system can contain the stress.

Whadya guys think? Is incivility in politics on the rise, or is it just my imagination?

Stephanie S. · 02-06-2005, 08:04 PM

Discourse between Left and Right could only remain civil for so long as Conservatives remained meek or had no counter-pulpit.
Well, I disagree with that statement. But I do think that political incivility is on the rise. I think that September 11 had a huge impact on peoples political demeanor and that emotions such as fear, anger and resentment have fueled the discourse throughout political discussions.

Personally, I don't think of myself as political at all, aside from my stance on legalization.

My views on politics stem from a sense of morality toward the world and my acceptance of the idea of tikkun olam, to heal the world. Since I believe that my job as a human is to make the world better in some way, my views on politics are probably slanted to the left. In all actuality, many of my views are strongly conservative. Some are middle of the road, I only recently decided firmly on a position regarding the death penalty (I decided I am totally 100% against it), but for years I sat on the fence.

Sometimes it seems like "conservatives" get really angry and hateful to those who think differently. I just like to share opinions, even get into a heated discussion, but some people get their panties all in a wad and take things personally, or let their feelings supercede rational thought and start slinging insults and say mean things. I thoroughly enjoy talking politics with my mom the Republican and staunch Conservative. We respect each other and agree that we disagree but we understand that through these discussion we both stand to learn something.

peace

MickityMike · 02-06-2005, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephanie S.

I think that September 11 had a huge impact on peoples political demeanor and that emotions such as fear, anger and resentment have fueled the discourse throughout political discussions.

I agree with that. This is something I've seen on both sides at times.

Quote:

My views on politics stem from a sense of morality toward the world and my acceptance of the idea of tikkun olam, to heal the world. Since I believe that my job as a human is to make the world better in some way, my views on politics are probably slanted to the left. In all actuality, many of my views are strongly conservative. Some are middle of the road, I only recently decided firmly on a position regarding the death penalty (I decided I am totally 100% against it), but for years I sat on the fence.

I still go back-and-forth on the death penalty. That's a topic where I'm constantly changing my mind. Right now, I think I'm against it - for the most part.

Quote:

Sometimes it seems like "conservatives" get really angry and hateful to those who think differently. I just like to share opinions, even get into a heated discussion, but some people get their panties all in a wad and take things personally, or let their feelings supercede rational thought and start slinging insults and say mean things. I thoroughly enjoy talking politics with my mom the Republican and staunch Conservative. We respect each other and agree that we disagree but we understand that through these discussion we both stand to learn something.

I don't think those statements are limited to "conservatives", and with that qualifier, I agree.

MickityMike · 02-06-2005, 10:05 PM

I posted this just prior to the November election, and it's probably worthwhile to remember it:

The Post-Election Peace Pledge

: I take this pledge:

After the election results are in, I promise to:
: Support the President, even if I didn't vote for him.
: Criticize the President, even if I did vote for him.
: Uphold standards of civilized discourse in blogs and in media while pushing both to be better.
: Unite as a nation, putting country over party, even as we work together to make America better.

Higher Logic · 02-06-2005, 10:37 PM

I remember you posting that, and I remember what I said:

I didn't support the President before the election, so why should I support him after? Why should my views amazingly change over? Either way, me not supporting him is no different than a lot of folks on here not criticizing him, even though they did vote for him.

Niteshift · 02-07-2005, 03:54 AM

In all actuality, many of my views are strongly conservative.

I'm curious..........would you like to share what some of those conservative views are?

MickityMike · 02-07-2005, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Higher Logic

I remember you posting that, and I remember what I said:

I didn't support the President before the election, so why should I support him after? Why should my views amazingly change over? Either way, me not supporting him is no different than a lot of folks on here not criticizing him, even though they did vote for him.

Maybe you’re taking it too literally – maybe it’s a tad nuanced?

I don't think the implication of the "pledge" is to blindly support and/or criticize. Those are really just preambles to what's really important:

Uphold standards of civilized discourse in blogs and in media while pushing both to be better.
: Unite as a nation, putting country over party, even as we work together to make America better.

I think that even all of us on here can agree that political discourse in the media ought to be better, and that we should all definitely be more concerned with our country’s performance than parties’.

02-06-2005, 08:04 PM	#2
Stephanie S. Original Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 1,433 Grams: 5,671.60 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 3 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Discourse between Left and Right could only remain civil for so long as Conservatives remained meek or had no counter-pulpit. Well, I disagree with that statement. But I do think that political incivility is on the rise. I think that September 11 had a huge impact on peoples political demeanor and that emotions such as fear, anger and resentment have fueled the discourse throughout political discussions. Personally, I don't think of myself as political at all, aside from my stance on legalization. My views on politics stem from a sense of morality toward the world and my acceptance of the idea of tikkun olam, to heal the world. Since I believe that my job as a human is to make the world better in some way, my views on politics are probably slanted to the left. In all actuality, many of my views are strongly conservative. Some are middle of the road, I only recently decided firmly on a position regarding the death penalty (I decided I am totally 100% against it), but for years I sat on the fence. Sometimes it seems like "conservatives" get really angry and hateful to those who think differently. I just like to share opinions, even get into a heated discussion, but some people get their panties all in a wad and take things personally, or let their feelings supercede rational thought and start slinging insults and say mean things. I thoroughly enjoy talking politics with my mom the Republican and staunch Conservative. We respect each other and agree that we disagree but we understand that through these discussion we both stand to learn something. peace __________________ "See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." —George W. Bush, Greece, N.Y., May 24, 2005 (Listen to audio)

02-06-2005, 10:37 PM	#5
Higher Logic Web Developer Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,119 Grams: 8,693.68 Thanks: 2 Thanked 90 Times in 45 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I remember you posting that, and I remember what I said: I didn't support the President before the election, so why should I support him after? Why should my views amazingly change over? Either way, me not supporting him is no different than a lot of folks on here not criticizing him, even though they did vote for him. __________________ Crucial Web Hosting · Garden's Cure · Marijuana Recipes · Drug Testing Facts Dilution · Substitution · Urine Testing · Hair Testing · Drug Testing FAQ

02-07-2005, 03:54 AM	#6
Niteshift L.E.O. in Good Standing Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 6,432 Grams: 5,323.12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 12 Times in 6 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	In all actuality, many of my views are strongly conservative. I'm curious..........would you like to share what some of those conservative views are? __________________ A burning desire for social justice is never a substitute for knowing what you're talking about. -Thomas Sowell Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is muzzle flash.

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