SonicPainter

many times this has happened. in history., can we point out the gestapo? how about the kgb? the hitler youth? those organizations were told to report on the activities of everyday people. In this nation how about the FBI spying on civilians in the 60's and the mc carthy era any one care to talk about how many lives the hunt for "commies" ruined? ?

the point is. it takes one whacked out individual neighbor of yours with a chip on his shoulder to cause you and your family a huge amount of agony. I dont know about you. but if i forget to tip my meter reader at christmas time, I certainly wouldnt want to be reported as a suspicious individual. how about Gladys Kravitz who lives next door? You really want to guess if the borderline personality disorder who lives down the street wants to stir up some excitement? who is going to keep those files on all those who are reported. If i am dishonestly reported. will I be able to look at the complaint against me? will i have recourse in order to remove that? or even VIEW my file? What if my freedom of opinion counters the agenda of my government? then am i a target for surveillance?

I know that some sheeple out there would like to think this is all good and for our safety. but frankly why cant we all just be good little americans and just stay vigilant in a time of "war"? do we really need yet another beuracracy to endanger our liberties and keep track of us?

I think what the govt wont do is run psych profiles on the individuals they wish to hire into thier little party. and that will sadly be a mistake.

Bin Laden said in his interview, that one of the goals of his attack was to turn the united states into a greater police state, to limit americans freedoms with more security etc. . if you open your eyes. you might see. then maybe. he might have been successful in that goal.

it is an ominous note on just where our society and everyday freedoms are going. technology was already taking us there. last thing we needed was a license given to govt to use it against US

but then thats my two cents (with current devaluation. that equals...hmm lets see. .....dust?).

best to alla you.
D.

AnarchistBarbie

I worked within the US intelligence community for many years. NO - it is not paranoid to be suspicious of the TIPS program. YES - there is serious potential for abuse by both local and federal goverment agencies. Offering up a false sense of purpose to Americans feeling helpless in the wake of 9/11 does nothing to address the very real fact that our liberties are being whittled away where ever possible [I make no accusations about this administration, the previous one, or the next one - they all do it when and where they can].

I'm not a member of a militia, I'm not a paranoid schizophrenic, and I'm not ill-informed. I'm f*ing scared of my goverment because I've been inside the machinery.

If it bothers you - say so! Tell your elected representatives how you feel clearly and simply. Tell them all. Don't take excuses, don't be brushed off. Granted it isn't an overnight solution, but long term it does effect change.

My worry isn't that every postman will become a peeper - frankly, anyone looking in MY windows is going to get educated! and I don't know anyone who couldn't use a little education. My worry is that in their zealousness to find terrorists under every pillow sham, otherwise normal sane people will begin harassing the innocent citizen for conduct that although not mainstream [or maybe it is...] is NOT illegal. Some states take a dim view of sex toys [even in the homes/hands of married consenting adults]. Other states still have legislation against homosexual activity. There are not assurances that the TIPS program won't cause a lot of people minding their own business a lot of hardship, embarassment, or damage. I object to it on those grounds more than any other.

Not to mention - I'm an anarchist.

__________________
Life has no dress code.

AlphaWolf

spy Pronunciation Key (sp)
n. pl. spies (spz)
An agent employed by a state to obtain secret information, especially of a military nature, concerning its potential or actual enemies.
One employed by a company to obtain confidential information about its competitors.
One who secretly keeps watch on another or others.
An act of spying.

v. spied, (spd) spy·ing, spies (spz)
v. tr.
To observe secretly with hostile intent.
To discover by close observation.
To catch sight of: spied the ship on the horizon.
To investigate intensively.

The definitions seem apply in this case.

I'll take it a step further, I don't think we need the program at all, why not just leave it at a simple call to vigilance and observance of our surroundings, and leave it at that? Why start a new government program for something everyone's already doing? I think most people if all have access to the numbers for the local sherrifs office or police station, and there's always 911 in the event of an emergency. I think this may backfire, by encouraging people to be too proactive and feel like they're "doing something" for the war on terror, it will have a negative windfall effect of bringining in too much information.. Remember, there isn't an infinite amount of manpower and hours, for each tip called in its reports to be written, investigations to be done.. etc, otherwise it defeats the purpose.. On the other hand, where are the checks and balances? What is going to prevent large scale abuse, and paranoia overriding good sense?.. What constitutes "suspicous activity"? What protections will be afforded to prevent abuse of the newfound power? And if it is such a good program, why has the Postal service refused to go along with it? Remember, its only been a few months since there were widespread panic over Anthrax and seemingly every open baggie of Sweet and Low was called in as a potential Anthrax attack, that is the mentality we're afraid of..

For the benefit of those, like myself.. What if any spicific concerns do you have about the Patriot Act.. ? I am sure I could go into the archives and dig, but I feel far to lazy to do so at the present moment.. My main concern lies in the abolishment of the 4th ammendment of the constitution.. Perhaps thats not "insidious" to you, but it is to the general populous.. at least those of us who have taken the time to actually pay attention to whats going on around us.

AnarchistBarbie

Not to mention the fact that a new [huge] Homeland Security Agency will give Bush an excellent [long] list of jobs to fill with his friends, family, and their friends and family... do we REALLY need a bigger government?

suede

And a poor one at that
Let's(take their minds off the real issues)
Unfortunately there aren't enough (spys)on the right side.The side trying to oust the criminal element from our own government,and its ties.Maybe it's time for stepping up the forces that spy on,and reveal thieving,lying,dishonest,politicians.Yeh ,I hear ya,there already is a committee for that,and look what a dandy good job they've done for u.s...... Americans did not elect dubya into orifice,big business did,and terrorism will continue as long as capitalism is the governments main goal.
Don't be fooled into believing you are doing a good service to mankind,by causing unwarranted hardship in the name of ignorance.

__________________
End World Hunger

Niteshift

"many times this has happened. in history., can we point out the gestapo? how about the kgb? the hitler youth? those organizations were told to report on the activities of everyday people. In this nation how about the FBI spying on civilians in the 60's"

That is absolute apples and oranges. The Gestapo, KGB and FBI were actual employees. The Hitler youth were inducted into a para-military organization that actually sent them into combat.

Those aren't even remotely similar.

"it takes one whacked out individual neighbor of yours with a chip on his shoulder to cause you and your family a huge amount of agony."

That's your anti-government bias talking.............. I guaran-damn-tee you that if that same whacked out guy gave me the tip, I could discretely determine of it was legit or total BS, without you ever knowing it. Where is the agony in that? You simply, and in my opinion incorrectly, assume that the government will do the worst possible thing with the absolute least amount of competence in all cases.

"I dont know about you. but if i forget to tip my meter reader at christmas time"

Couldn't tell you about that.....we don't tip utility workers, garbagemen etc around here.

"how about Gladys Kravitz who lives next door?"

Ooooohhhhhh, bad choice for an example. She really was seeing all those things.

"If i am dishonestly reported. will I be able to look at the complaint against me?"

Unless they are making a specific exception for this, you would be able to, after the file is closed. It's a FOIA request, just like getting your FBI file.

"will i have recourse in order to remove that? "

No. You shouldn't either. It's an offical document at that point. You shouldn't be allowed to have it removed.

"or even VIEW my file?"

Again, it's a simple FOIA request.

"I know that some sheeple out there would like to think this is all good and for our safety."

Why does having a different take on it make them sheeple?

"I worked within the US intelligence community for many years."

I only did for 5 years, but I got the idea.

"YES - there is serious potential for abuse by both local and federal goverment agencies"

You're overlooking the obvious..........that same, exact potential exists without the program. The same people can call in and make the same reports without the TIPS program.

Show me where the potential is different and I'll be interested. BTW, likelihood does not equal potential....just in case that was your reply.

"The definitions seem apply in this case."

Well fine, they can be applied..........so can the definitions of observant, vigilant, aware and probably more words. I never said the word was incorrect in its use, but that the word was being used by the programs detractors, through their own initiative and it was no a govt. word.

The point was not the actual definition of the word, but the context and connotation of the word. We all know what it's being used to mean, so let's not bog down in the semantics.......... it's being used with a negative connotation, not to mean something nice.

"I think most people if all have access to the numbers for the local sherrifs office or police station, and there's always 911 in the event of an emergency."

You'd be truly amazed at people. There are those who wouldn't call the police unless they were dying because they are afraid they'll look silly............... then there are those who call 911 to ask what time it is (yes, it's true). Don't count on people knowing who to call and when.

The other factor is that pre-9/11, we had a lot of info. But the CIA had some of it, the FBI some, INS some, local cops some etc......... it's like taking a puzzle and dropping the pieces all over town and expecting someone to complete it. Centralizing the flow of info into the system is logical from a management standpoint.

"Remember, there isn't an infinite amount of manpower and hours, for each tip called in its reports to be written, investigations to be done.. "

Which supports my arguement. The government is not going to do a full-fledged "crawl up your butt with a microscope" investigation on every tip that is called in saying "I think my neighbor is a Commie". They can't and won't.

"On the other hand, where are the checks and balances? What is going to prevent large scale abuse, and paranoia overriding good sense?.."

What is preventing it without the TIPS program? You guys are failing to understand..........all the same things already exist. But everyone is getting their undies in a bunch over this "spy program". IT"S ALREADY THERE and has been for years.

"What constitutes "suspicous activity"?"

You can't define it, just like the courts have never defined it in criminal cases before. It is judged based on the established framework and on a case by case basis. You can't define things like reasonable suspicion and probable cause because you can't predict every possibility.

"And if it is such a good program, why has the Postal service refused to go along with it?"

LOL..........because they have their own program already.

"What if any spicific concerns do you have about the Patriot Act.. ? I am sure I could go into the archives and dig, but I feel far to lazy to do so at the present moment.."

I'm too lazy too.

"My main concern lies in the abolishment of the 4th ammendment of the constitution.."

Even though I have issues with the Patriot Act, it does not abolish the 4th Amendment. In most cases, it borrows things that have existed for years in the RICO statutes and Controlled Substances statutes, as well as the US Code regarding criminal intelligence.

"but it is to the general populous.. at least those of us who have taken the time to actually pay attention to whats going on around us."

I would submit to you that you are hardly any more of a representative of the "general populous" than I am.

__________________
A burning desire for social justice is never a substitute for knowing what you're talking about. -Thomas Sowell

Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is muzzle flash.

lessness

after reading all that was posted, if i lived in US, i would be really paranoid with phone companies utillity workers, since they don't need to get IN your house to hear whats going on...

2 or 3 more successful 9/11 terrorist attacks (successfull to the so called bad guys of course.) and america will be a police state while democracy is out the window. whats next, stripdancers wearing burka? bin laden's wet summer dream...

i have strong doubts if making official to incite spying and denoucing to regular citizens is the answer to help the war against terrorism.

If a LEO says that, that kinda spy behavior (well, to niteshift its not spying...) has been normally going on since always, and now its only official, then lets legalize weed grow, since herbs have been growing since the begging of time, let's make it official then... seems only fair. ;-P

Niteshift

"i have strong doubts if making official to incite spying and denoucing to regular citizens is the answer to help the war against terrorism."

I already said that it probably wouldn't make a big impact. It could, but odds are it won't.

"If a LEO says that, that kinda spy behavior (well, to niteshift its not spying...) has been normally going on since always, and now its only official, then lets legalize weed grow, since herbs have been growing since the begging of time, let's make it official then... seems only fair."

I'm sure it made more sense when you were typing it.


You all keep talking about "official", "sanctioned" etc. I guess if you call a volunteer program that doesn't have meetings, regular training etc an "official and sanctioned" program, the Boy Scouts must terrify you. They meet regularly and train. They even have uniforms.


This is all a tempest in a teacup. They gave a new name to an old program and now it's the biggest threat to personal freedom since Joe McCarty!?!? Last year, the Meth Anti-proliferation bill was the greatest threat to personal freedom since McCarthy.

My money says that a year or two from now the whole program will be quietly scrapped and slip off into history without anyone noticing.


I find this a little strange, it usually seems that cops are the ones being accused of being too cynical and always seeing the worst potential in people................ but not in this thread.

AlphaWolf

Actually, you don't have to wait 2 years... its already been scrapped..

http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...9-90562710.htm

This is an example where us more "Liberal" types will actually agree with the conservative smaller government approach.. I'm glad Rep. Armey came through on this one..

lessness

Mr. niteshift, where the hell is the "wincky face showing tongue" at the end of my sentence? its an intrisical part of my statement and you forgot to quote it! Please be a dear and dont alter other ppl posts to suit your twisted "by the book" needs... hehehe

well.. actually english is my 3rd language and you're gonna have to bear with me... but i appreciated you not using "get off the bong, will ya!" to express your confusion.
all in all, my signature/disclaimer speaks for itself...


now that ya mantioned it...
actually boy scouts do freak me out a lot, if you must know.
a bunch of kids dressed up like idiots, leaded by an idiot dressed up like a kid... urrrhhhhhgggg!! it gives me the creeps..


we smoke pot, we paranoid *repeat it several times zombie like*

peace