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goldberry

to combat terrorism.

The pilot program is described on
www.citizencorps.gov

Here's an article about the program.

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vaya

I'll flash 'em the finger if they flash me the notice.

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Shroud

haha seriously so would I....hopefully I get myself on videotape too for posterity

Niteshift

The TIPS program is nothing new at all. Many cities have been using similar programs for years with utility companies. For example, our local power company participates in a program that has them call in suspicious activity they observe while doing their jobs. It has resulted in burglaries being thwarted, robbery suspects caught etc.

This is not new, nor is it being a "spy". If you see a burglary happening, calling the police is being a responsible citizen. Likewise, if you see someone doing something that could be preparation for a terrorist act, why shouldn't it get reported? Would you have labelled a person a "spy" if they had overheard the 9/11 terrorists going over the plan for the last time and called the police?

Nor are any of the other programs that sinister. Neighborhood watch? Been around forever. Most of the rest of it? Old programs given a new name. Ever heard of the Civil Defense? Been around since WW2 or earlier. Did the same things.

Other things Goldstein says:

"Historically, informant systems have been the tools of non-democratic states"

And the tools of democratic states. He only told half of the truth.

"TIPS volunteers are being recruited primarily from among those whose work provides access to homes, businesses or transport systems. Letter carriers, utility employees, truck drivers and train conductors are among those named as targeted recruits."

Access to homes? When was the last time a letter carrier, utility worker, truck driver or train conductor was in your home? I've had the phone guy in my house once in 7 years. That's it.

Exaggerrate much Mr. Goldstein?

"The Patriot Act already provides for a person's home to be searched without that person being informed that a search was ever performed, or of any surveillance devices that were implanted."

Another slight exaggerration. It's not able to just be done at random and for no damn reason.

"At state and local levels the TIPS program will be co-ordinated by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, which

was given sweeping new powers, including internment, as part of the Reagan Administration's national security initiatives. "

FEMA, the great boogeyman of the far-right etremists is now making it onto this forum too?

Do you know how many "articles" about FEMA building underground internment camps in Colorado or "re-education" camps in Idaho I've seen in the past 10 years from the militia folks?

"The creation of a US "shadow government", operating in secret, was another Reagan national security initiative."

Another militia favorite. Has Goldstein been cruising alt.conspiracy.black.helicopters again?

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Bongzilla

I just read about that here: http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.p...thread&order=0

I don't care how they anyone is going to try to justify it, because this is just wrong. There will be many false accusations that will screw up many lives. How can someone say 'that looks like terrorist activity'? If my Arab neighbour just got a shipment in yesterday and I don't see him for 2 weeks should I call in? And there is the whole paranoia factor. One in 24 Americans are spies. Don't give me that 'If you are innocent you have nothing to worry about' because I would want to isolate myself if I suspect my friends as being spies. The article's reference to McCarthy and what is going on right now doesn't seem so far-fetched.

I think we should start sending more spies into the actual government... look at all the corruption accusations and cases that have come out in the past few months.

Like I've said many times before, Canada is looking better and better everyday

 

goldberry

I don't consider calling the cops when you happen to see a burglarly, or happen to overhear terrorist, spying. This situation is slightly different, though. The people in this case don't just happen to stumble upon a crime, they're out there looking for criminal activity before it happens. I do consider that spying of some sorts.

It's true that democratic states have also used informant systems in the past, but not nearly as much as non-democratic governments. The ruling power in those governments mainly use the informant system to stay in power and weed () out opposition.

I agree with you here cause it's been a year for me, but I imagine that apartment tenants have people such as pest control and maintenance in their homes all the time.

No, but the Patriot Act has given police more flexibility than it has had in a long time.

I personally don't think the program is worth while cause like you said if you see a burglary or overhear a terrorist then why not report it? That should be common sense. Why do we need this program?

Niteshift

"This situation is slightly different, though. The people in this case don't just happen to stumble upon a crime, they're out there looking for criminal activity before it happens. I do consider that spying of some sorts."

It's simply asking them to pay attention, something the vast majority of people fail to do.

Then, if you see something suspicious, it gives them a simple way to report it. You wouldn't believe how many people don't know who they should tell what to. So, instead of risking looking foolish by calling the Secret Service with something that should be handled by Customs, they just don't say anything to anyone.

And do you want to know why people like truck drivers and utility workers are good sources of info? They're always there and they blend into the background. People don't even notice a telephone company van 20 ft. away, but they'll notice my blue and white patrol car a mile away.

"but I imagine that apartment tenants have people such as pest control and maintenance in their homes all the time."

Did you see either of those listed anywhere or are you presuming that they will be involved?

"No, but the Patriot Act has given police more flexibility than it has had in a long time."

True and I've expressed concerns about the act, however, I do not see it as the insidious plot that it's being portrayed as.

"I personally don't think the program is worth while cause like you said if you see a burglary or overhear a terrorist then why not report it? That should be common sense. Why do we need this program?"

Aside from the reason above, making it streamlined so people aren't afraid they'll be "bothering" the wrong agency, there is a more simple answer. It's so obvious, you'll smack your forehead and go "Doh!"

If makes people feel like they're helping.

Millions of Americans sat glued to CNN/MSNBC/FNC for days after the attacks. And a lot of them, perhaps even you, wished there was something you could do to drag the parties responsible before the bar of justice (or a firing squad). But you realized there really wasn't a lot you could do.

So here comes the TIPS program...........giving Joe Sixpack the truck driver and Tom Toolbelt the utility worker a sense of purpose. A feeling that he is involved in the fight against terrorism. A feeling that he can make a difference.

Are these guys likely to crack the case? No. But what if they see just one small thing that, when put with other small things, start to point to the right direction? And what if, along the way, while looking for terrorists, Joe and his new-found attentiveness spot a burglar casing a neighborhood or a pedophile casing a school bus stop? Hey, all the better..........we're happy for the help in those "mundane" crimes too.


The impression that Goldstein wants us to have is that full scale federal investigations will begin and every inch of your private live inspected because the meter reader phones in a tip that he finds it suspicious that you seem to sleep all day and get up around sun down. That simply isn't how the program will work.

Bongzilla

But is giving such a large number of citizens a false sense of power and being able to take action such a good thing?

Obviously the majority of citizens in the US would call the local authority if they had a damn good reason to suspect someone of terrorist activity. But giving it such a formal title will naturally change the situation from being a normal, cautious person to someone who actively looks out for such an activity to brand 'Terrorism' and is much more suspicious of others.

Why not start throwing out titles such as 'Official Citizen LEO' and allow them to start arresting or taking matters into their own hands? Think about all the negative things that would follow from such government endorsed vigilantes.

Herb Ninja

Citizens Arrest....

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vaya

Yea you hit the nail on the head this time around.

I cant really add anything because what I have to say is what he already said
peace