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Bongwater19

i could understand being disenfranchised while in jail for a felony, but once your out of jail your sentence is up! it is unconstitutional to withhold voting rights from ex-convicts.

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Niteshift

"but once your out of jail your sentence is up! it is unconstitutional to withhold voting rights from ex-convicts."

Not at all unconstitutional.

Governors can restore rights within their respective states (called clemency), but they still have no control over the Federal ones.

If the Constitution allows the government to take your life after due process, why would it not let something like your voting right be taken?

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Newrea64

IMHO, it would seem removing the right to vote is more punative than anything else. After all, we all share equal power in this aspect, but even ex-felons can still make campaign contributions.

Think of it this way, the more repressive a government is, the more likelyhood of trespassing the law, even up to the point of revolting against status quo. Without the right to vote, one day, these may be your only options.

I've heard one statistic, that if all of the felons in Florida were allowed to vote and did, the probability of Bush being in office would be more marginal than it is now.

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Niteshift

The arguement the other way is pretty simple:

The convicted felon has demonstrated his unwillingness to live within the rules our society has laid down. He has, in effect, shown that he does not want to be "team player", so he forfeits his right to play.

If you're on a football team and you ignore going to practice, only showing up for the games, because that's the only part you want involved with, how likely are you to play?

AnarchistBarbie

I was referring more to consensual adult 'crimes' like adultery [for service members it's a big no-no, although rather unevenly persecuted], and freak sex [some places consider a little SM, bondage, or toys criminal].

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Conine

The convicted felon has demonstrated his unwillingness to live within the rules our society has laid down. He has, in effect, shown that he does not want to be "team player", so he forfeits his right to play.

What of the football player that, after serving the sentence of not playing in the game, gets his act together, lives within the rules of society, and demonstrates that he wants to be a team player? They get put back in... even in the extreme situation of not playing until next season.

A. Barbie... seems like I was always reading about people losing stripes in the base paper over adultery. The military tends to be overly involved in your life like that.

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Jimmy Jim

You're missing the point. The U.S. government HAS to rescind the voting rights of everyone they arrest for marijuana because those 800,000 they arrest every year could "conspire" to overthrow the system and legalize marijuana.

I don't know if they yet rescind voting rights for shoplifters, traffic violations, prostitution, corporate fraud, cheating on income taxes, blasphemers, dancing on the Lord's Day, breaking a pledge of allegiance by questioning authority, or violating an oath of office -so help me God- to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America.

Niteshift

"I was referring more to consensual adult 'crimes' like adultery [for service members it's a big no-no, although rather unevenly persecuted], and freak sex [some places consider a little SM, bondage, or toys criminal]."

What state are any of those felonies in?

"What of the football player that, after serving the sentence of not playing in the game, gets his act together, lives within the rules of society, and demonstrates that he wants to be a team player? They get put back in... even in the extreme situation of not playing until next season."

Then they apply to the governor for clemency on the state level and the President on the Federal level. It's possible, just not likely. The mechanism exists, so since it exists, you have the right to ask and be turned down.

"The military tends to be overly involved in your life like that."

The military has to be. It's not like the civilian world. You do not have the same rights, you voluntarily gave them up.

Anything, and I mean anything, that hampers unit cohesion and mission readiness should be fair game. If f*cking your buddys wife creates a problem with unit cohesion, you should be punished. It's not so much about morality as it is about mission.

"The U.S. government HAS to rescind the voting rights of everyone they arrest for marijuana because those 800,000 they arrest every year could "conspire" to overthrow the system and legalize marijuana."

Bogus statement.

First, 800,000 people don't get arrested for pot.

Second, most are arrested on the state level, for violations of state law, not federal.

Third, in a major number of states, possession is either a civil infraction or a misdemeanor, so you wouldn't lose your right to vote.

So, instead of 800,000 every year, which you very incorrectly stated, there is only a fraction of that number in reality.

Further, your assertion that they could "conspire" to overthrow the system is a dream. You should know by now that your movement hasn't even come close to that much power on a national level. Why? Because you're fragmented, unfocused and not all working towards the same goal.

Some want legalization for everyone, some want decriminalization, some want all drugs, some just pot, some want it limited to 18 or older, some 21 and up etc.................. Get on the same sheet of music and get focussed.

KWhite

The convicted felon has demonstrated his unwillingness to live within the rules our society has laid down. He has, in effect, shown that he does not want to be "team player", so he forfeits his right to play.

Okay, I can see where you are able to make this assertion.
But I contend the assertion only stands as long as each and every law is a "Good" law.

What could happen, and I also believe that conspiracy is too strong a word, but what is possible is a slow removal of any dissenting voices.
If you make it easier to disenfranchise any one then....

Why, it becomes a simple matter of passing/amending the correct statutes to get any voice you do not like to be quiet.
The pesky initiative thing and change of government thing are then a non issue. If the only ones allowed to vote are the chosen, then the vote is no longer a tool for critical change.
it becomes a farce!

Disenfranchise during all incarceration, but as soon as they have paid the debt owed to society, give them back their right to vote.

In case enough of whoever ended up in jail, and want to get focused and change some laws/politicians after they are re-enfranchised. Stranger things have been known to happen.

I would like to close this with a quote from Terry Pratchett, of all people.

From his book "The Truth". It is at the very end, after the Hero of the story has invented thre newspaper(The Times) and prevented a grave miscarriage of justice, while still refusing to allow preediting of his paper by the police Commander Vimes and anyone else. The freedom to speak out.
Our vote is our voice.
He is speakng to a Lord Vetinari who was the direct benefactor of his efforts and stubborn refusal to be meek.

"In return, however" said the Patrician, "I must ask you not to upset Commander Vimes. He gave a little cough. "More than necessary."
"I'm sure we can pull together, sir."
Lord Vetinari raised his eyebrows. "Oh, I do hope not. Pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny. Free men pull in all kinds of directions." He smiled. "Its the only way to make progress. That and, of course, moving with the times. Good day to you"

Very simplistic of course, but most truths are simple.

I would only make one change I think.

"Forced or coerced pulling together is the aim of despotism and tyranny"

May Mr. Pratchett forgive me my use of his words, and rest in peace.
Kelly

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Niteshift

"But I contend the assertion only stands as long as each and every law is a "Good" law."

And I would counter that by saying that any law can be changed. You know how to do it. But until you properly change the law, you are bound by its rule and if you choose to break it, you willingly accept the fact that it has consequences.

You alone can not, and should not, determine what is a "good" law or a "bad" law. Pot was not prohibited based on a single citizen deciding it, nor should it be declared a "bad" law by the individual. Laws are passed by elected representatives and they are changed by elected representatives.

By election, we choose people that most closely represent our views and have them act in our proxy. Each legislator represents his district of people. If a majority of legislator pass a law, it is deemed that the majority of the people have passed the law. If the majority of his constituents don't feel he has represented them appropriately, then he can be defeated in an election and a new one sent in, wwho can then introduce motions to change the law.

That's how the system works. If you choose to circumvent the system by deciding on your own which laws should be followed and which ones are "bad", then you have made the choice to not play by the rules and forfeit your right to be included in the system.

"Disenfranchise during all incarceration, but as soon as they have paid the debt owed to society, give them back their right to vote."

I disagree. One only needs to look at the number of felons that end up right back in jail to see that the number that have removed themselves as "team players" is very high.

Yes, you can find exceptions, but you have to use the totality to plan the course of action. And when you start making exceptions for this crime or that one, you get into the situation I talked about above.