awalkinthegrass

First off Abomonog, I want to let you know that no words I can say could possibly matter at all with regards to your experience, all I can say is that I am very sorry you have had to endure all of this sh*t. I can't say I've ever met anyone who has had as bad experiences as you have had with this issue. I hope your case is rare and, if you have truly been a responsible, nonviolent victim of this stupid war, then I salute you.

>> And how about that poor fellow in New York? They shot him 41 times and Guilliani said he DESERVED IT!!!
For them it was a war to the death.

Yes, this is true, there are extremists. Fortunately, I think they are aware of their limits and that people in general do not support death over marijuana.

>> Most of who die have never harmed anyone.

Not sure how we could prove or disprove that theory; I'm going to ignore the claim.

>> How many more have to die before we take a stand?

Cops get killed all the time. I'm also sure more than a few politicians have had their cars bombed by the cartels. It gets violent, sure, but in general it doesn't get violent over marijuana and I don't want to see violence over marijuana.

>> We don't need to initiate violence to win, but we do have to risk it.

I will interpret this to mean that, if the alternative is to obey absolute dictums to not smoke marijuana under the pain of death at the hands of the government or private interest groups, that we should be willing to initiate violence.

Absolutely. I'll toke to that. But we are not living in Singapore (yes, they kill you there). I still think we're a long way from the Singapore model, despite your poignant, but still isolated, examples to the contrary. Let's keep trying to get bills on the ballot for right now. Given the current political climate, it's still a viable, powerful method of change. Canada is finally doing it; Switzerland has done it; Holland has done it; I think that eventually we will do it also.

-Paul

Abomonog

First off I must say you're a damn good debater. Take it from someone who does it both professionally and as a hobby. Be proud of your ability.

My bad expieriences with pot are few, but intense... There are actually very few problems of mine that I can attribute to the drug war or anything but my own stupidity.


I happened to know Ms. Bowers very loosly, It is mere coincedence that she happened to own a home close to my work. I only met her a few times before her death. My outrage over her death is because I have vast Military knowledge and close friends in the military. (Comes with where I live) They all say there is no possible way her plane could have been mistaken for a drug smugglers plane. My own personal knowledge agrees with this.

Look at the numbers, The number of Potheads who have died by police guns outnumber the number of police who have died from pothead guns. Logic alone proves my theory. Logic dictates that in such a circumstance the police are the aggressors. We also know that the average smoker is pretty passive. Outside of the usual idiocy it is logical to assume that a large chunk of these people are reletively harmless.

Well your partly right. And, For some, thats exactly what prohibition means, under pain of death. Death by disease is a far worse death than a bullet IMHO. For these people being locked up for even 6 months is a death sentence.

I was always taught that life is sacred over everything else. Our problem is that our government has gotten more and more steadfast on enforcing it's values on the people. The result of the Rodney King trials has proven that. There has been a greater and greater urge for the government to enforce its will on the people.

My ultimate goal is to save lives. If this means that a few people, including me, dies defying the police on Capitol
Hill, so be it. The survivors would then know our government has turned on it's people and all is lost, and so would everyone else. What I have proposed is not intended to be violent, but there is a distinctive chance that it could become violent. This would depend entirely on our governments attitude. Remember, the standers would be unarmed and nonviolent, but they would be steadfast. The question is: Would our government choose to listen or remove us? If they chose to remove us they would be required to kill us as that would be the ultimatum. Either listen or kill off unarmed protesters.
Like I said, I don't believe the government would kill us and choose to listen... at the moment. But in 5 years?... Remember, Uncle Sam is already guilty of cold blooded murder. How long before he resorts to mass murder to silence us?

Conclusion: I don't believe it will ever be legal in America untill we make a stand. Every country that legalizes loses trading rights with the US. There has already been under-the-table proposes to close the Canadian border if they should legalize, or so my scources have told me. None of this is official but if the military has recieved notices about it then it's a distinct possibility. The Dutch were blacklisted from advertising or exporting directly to America when they legalized and Advertising from Austrailia has already been suspended (notice no more Quantis ads, suddenly) pending their descision on legalization. These are pretty legthly measures to keep drugs out of the country. There has been attempts to outlaw sites such as this, making it a class A felony for it to exist. HMM... Equating web site content with homicide is pretty drastic for me. The way I see it, time is running short and chanses are running thin. I can see this country quickly reverting to isolationism to "protect" it's citezens from the ravishes of a "world on dope".

awalkinthegrass

> First off I must say you're a damn good debater.

Thanks for the compliment man. Rest assured that I am on your side and any skills I possess will be used aggressively against people who would argue the other 'side' of this debate.

> My bad expieriences with pot are few, but intense... There are actually very few problems of mine that I can attribute to the drug war or anything but my own stupidity.

Yes, but still, they have been acts of 'stupidity' in lieu of the War on Drugs. In a legalized or decriminalized society, it would be a lot harder to be 'stupid' in using a perfectly natural and largely harmless substance. This war has forced perfectly decent people to become experts in the art of deception and secrecy, and that's great training overall in the event the situation escalates into a more organized, militaristic movement, but it still sucks in general that we have to live that way.

Still, I don't think the situation is going to escalate to violence. I do not think that the government has the balls to publically shoot down innocent protesters. That would incite violent political demonstrations like we haven't seen since the 60's. There are a lot of long haired potheads out there just dying for an excuse to throw a brick through the windows of the DEA. The entire civilized planet (with the exception perhaps of our model humanitarian governments of Afghanistan, Singapore and China) would be screaming blue bloody murder. I would hope Canada and Holland would have nothing to do with us.

If they didn't shoot us over Vietnam (Kent State anomaly excluded) then they're not going to do it to a bunch of CAMP demonstrators or NORML rally go-ers. That's just simply preposterous. No, they will simply continue to threaten us with arrests, property forfeitures, denied federal financial aid, and the like, ignoring the movement until they can't ignore it anymore. We've been taking risks since 1937; what makes them think that we will ever stop? The following is a famous quote from the sixties. Normally I don't quote the enemy to support my argument, but he said it perfectly:

"Pham Van Dong was an ardent supporter of Vietnam's unification under communist leadership. In 1966, for example, he rhetorically asked one visiting reporter, "And how long do you Americans want to fight? One
year? Two years? Five years? Ten years? Twenty years? We will be glad to accommodate you." http://www.viam.com/archive/2000/05/pvd.htm

That's powerful sh*t. When you're faced with that kind of argument, it throws a whole new light on things. It makes you stop and think how much you really care about your stance. In this War on Drugs, the enemy is motivated by politics, money, and false ideology. He supports himself with lies, unconstitutional contortions of law, and ignoring the democratic process. We are motivated by compassion for the sick and dying, our basic freedom to control our own minds and bodies, and the knowledge that what we are doing is not wrong. We defend ourselves with the weight of scientific truth, our Constitutional right to be free to pursue happiness, and by diligently working for political reform through democratic means. Who do YOU think is going to win in the end?

>> I happened to know Ms. Bowers very loosly, It is mere coincedence that she happened to own a home close to my work. I only met her a few times before her death. My outrage over her death is because I have vast Military knowledge and close friends in the military. (Comes with where I live) They all say there is no possible way her plane could have been mistaken for a drug smugglers plane. My own personal knowledge agrees with this.

I know very little about the incident. Why do you think then, if it could not have been mistaken as a drug plane, that they would have shot it down?

>> Look at the numbers, The number of Potheads who have died by police guns outnumber the number of police who have died from pothead guns. Logic alone proves my theory. Logic dictates that in such a circumstance the police are the aggressors. We also know that the average smoker is pretty passive. Outside of the usual idiocy it is logical to assume that a large chunk of these people are reletively harmless.

This logic makes sense.

>> I will interpret this to mean that, if the alternative is to obey absolute dictums to not smoke marijuana under the pain of death at the hands of the government or private interest groups, that we should be willing to initiate violence.

> Well your partly right. And, For some, thats exactly what prohibition means, under pain of death. Death by disease is a far worse death than a bullet IMHO. For these people being locked up for even 6 months is a death sentence.

It's horrible, and we have to continue to adamantly oppose it and bring it to the attention of Jane and John Public, but think about this: the longer the government locks up Joe, the 67 year old paraplegic who smoked dope with a doctor's prescription, the quicker they'll be slitting their throats in the public eye. NO ONE in this country supports that insanity. They're starting to march their King into a corner; we're literally putting it in their face: "How low are you willing to go? Oh, and keep in mind, we've got public opinion on our side." It's a Catch-22. The government is definitely getting very uneasy about the current state of affairs. I love it.

>> I was always taught that life is sacred over everything else. Our problem is that our government has gotten more and more steadfast on enforcing it's values on the people. The result of the Rodney King trials has proven that. There has been a greater and greater urge for the government to enforce its will on the people.

I was reading today that unless we are willing to educate ourselves about our rights under the law, then we're slitting our own throats. Lawmakers and judges and politicians can sniff out that we're beginning to become ignorant of the system, largely because we have lost faith in it. When we are ignorant of our rights, we cannot assert them, and when we cannot assert them, there is no opposition to those who would break them. Think about it. The Constitution is a thorn in every overzealous police officer's side. Not even the judges really want it around. If they could legally come into our homes with dogs to sniff for marijuana, some 'well meaning politician' who 'cared for the welfare of our nation's children' would have already authorized it by now. And it would have passed.

But even the most ignorant know about the sanctity of the home. Every kid who went through social studies knows about warrants and free speech, even if they aren't sure how they might apply when a cop is in their face, asking questions. But lawyers know; and lawyers can throw out a thousand pounds of confiscated contraband as evidence if the Constitutional rights of the defendant were infringed upon. So officers still must be mindful, and lawmakers must still be creative in bending and interpreting the law around the Constitution to fit their own agendas. It has not devolved into total anarchy YET.

This is why I am very upset when I hear people talking about how the situation is hopeless. Who cares if it's hopeless; fight anyway, and fight by the rules until you have to take up arms. The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto knew they were going to die, but they rebelled, fought the Nazis anyway. They were slaughtered, but at least they were slaughtered putting up a hell of a fight, as free men, and not as fodder for some coward sitting on the edge of a pit with a Tommy gun smoking a cigarette.

> My ultimate goal is to save lives. If this means that a few people, including me, dies defying the police on Capitol Hill, so be it.

You'd have to be armed. The police wouldn't shoot you; they'd simply arrest you for one reason or another. Drag you off to prison. If you fought back, they'd hit you over the head with a billy club or spray you with pepper spray. You'd have to pose a serious threat before they started shooting to kill.

> The survivors would then know our government has turned on it's people and all is lost, and so would everyone else.

Or, more likely, the media would paint you as a bunch of fanatics. Still, though, I see your point. It would go down in history as another peaceful pot protest turned bad, like the New York City 2001 Space Odyssey event. On a macro-social level, it would probably work to our advantage. People would read it and say, "Jesus, we're having fights outside the capitol because of weed? Give it up, already."

Here's an excerpt of what happened. I thought it was great. If you want, I will post the entire article.

"NEW YORK CITY--"It was the most powerful and inspirational marijuana rally I've been to. It's the first year we actually stood up and said to the cops, 'hey, get the f*ck out,'" said Josh Twelve of White Plains, NY.

Twelve's friend Nick Rie was one of numerous victims of brutal behavior by New York City police May 5, at the "2001: A Space Odyssey" pot- legalization protest. Scores of undercover narcs invaded the crowd, arresting both pot-smokers and people trying to warn pot-smokers, and riot-geared cops pepper-sprayed a group protesting one bust."


> What I have proposed is not intended to be violent, but there is a distinctive chance that it could become violent. This would depend entirely on our governments attitude.

Wrong, it's the other way around. The government is kind of like the United States in the air raids. Serbia said, 'why don't you come down here and fight like a man?' and we replied, 'because we don't have to.'

> Remember, the standers would be unarmed and nonviolent, but they would be steadfast.

Wouldn't work. Like I said, they'd drag you off to the paddy wagon before they shot you. The only way they'd shoot you is if you pulled out a weapon or became violent first.

> Either listen or kill off unarmed protesters.
Like I said, I don't believe the government would kill us and choose to listen... at the moment. But in 5 years?... Remember, Uncle Sam is already guilty of cold blooded murder. How long before he resorts to mass murder to silence us?

As I said much earlier in this post, I don't see it happening. Like a bunch of kids who refuse to grow up, we're going to eventually get some nasty put-down by Canada or Holland and we'll be so mortified we'll try to be the cool kid again. Just watch.

-Paul

awalkinthegrass

> The way I see it, time is running short and chanses are running thin. I can see this country quickly reverting to isolationism to "protect" it's citezens from the ravishes of a "world on dope".

If it does come down to this, then I'll either see you on the firing range or I'll see you in Canada.

But I would stress that we should maintain faith. The reason this war isn't over already is because the media is cowering and the politicians are pandering. As a result, the rest of the country has been euthanized. If this birth doesn't happen naturally, something drastic will happen that will jolt us out of our indifference and force us to take notice. It will turn into a massive issue like Abortion, Whitewater, and Elian Gonzales. The debates will be furious, the protests will be forceful and violent, and every stoner in the world will leave his house to be a part of the Revolution at the next Woodstock, wherever it happens to be.

-Paul

Abomonog

Why don't we forget this thread and start publishing books?

Ok, Shortly I have to hit the road so I'll hit on some key points and get the rest tomarrow or maybe later tonight.

Not all of them and I have pulled some real boners.
The truth is, my rashest act was because of lack of enforcement and police complacency. However, this was because of a different drug problem and not MJ. Lets just say it was a situation that was costing too many lives to be ignored.

Damn right we are. I get away with the things I do because I know my rights and the law. If you have ever heard of Steve Dahl and the Insane Co-ho lips (IF you haven't read his history and his anti-disco campaign's history) you know that if you know your rights you can do almost anything you want. He had nothing to do with MJ but he proved the power of the constitution.


Yes true, but Warsaw and the holocaust could have been prevented had the Jews acted as soon as Hitler took power. The knew what he was about and they had nearly 2 years to run before Hitler turned his attention on them. Their complacency killed them almost as much as Hitler did.

So bring a charcol gas mask and a helmet. You can get both items from any army surplus store for less than 25 bucks.
There are also peacefull ways of stopping arrests in progress.
A good start is to make sure they can only arrest the entire group at once. I would love to see a hundred cops trying to arrest someone while there are 5000 more shoving their arms in their face yelling TAKE ME!!! TAKE ME!!! The local system would collapse under such pressure as it would be impossible to book the entire crowd (or transport them) at once. Now if they got violent over thousands of folks giving them selves up, you would see me laying on the ground, dying from laughter. Imagine the headlines. DC police crack under the pressure of thousands of MJ smokers giving themselves up for arrest at once.

Um... I want that article. I totally missed it for some reason.

What I had propsed is basically a sit in INSIDE Capitol Hill. They would be forced to come down and fight. Of course we would at least be polite enough to let everyone leave (no hostage situation allowed), just no one enters.

I hope your right, and that would be funny indeed.

Probably on the firing range. As much as I try not to resort to violence, in this case I would find it too fun to pass up.

I wrote up an end of the world scenareo for Relic Software (Homeworld) some time back and it starts much like I just described, with the US becoming Isolationist again. In fact the resulting war starts as a Civil war here. They passed it up because they claimed it was too disturbingly probable. Come to think of it they were right. I'll post it if I can be sure it wouldn't get deleted. (It has nothing to do with drugs, but with other problems here)

Mr. Cowan calls it bad press, I call it good propoganda.
If you want a good overview over what exactly is happening with the press, Go to a WW2 history sight and read up on Tokyo Rose. She was imprisoned as a war criminal but all she ever did was spin 78's and babble lines of Bullsh*t. Simply stated the press is probably well paid to print what they do.
I could tell you the sun is blue, you might not believe it, but if I convinced enough papers to print it people will begine to believe it. If I do it thousands of times I could probably convince people to outlaw a yellow sun. It's crazy but it a proven method of brainwashing.

Ok time has run out for me. I'll continue this later.