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green medicine

I don't equate the so called 'free market' with Freedom. But that's how it's sold to us.

What are we saying about ourselves as a society if we leave everything to be ultimately decided by the free market? Greed/the profit motive is our God. I'm not even religious but you can see where I might go with this argument for the religious folk. I'm all for competition and healthy markets but there are just some things that we as human beings have to step in and monitor. We are venturing back into some pre-depression era philosophies in regard to ownership, regulation and industry oversight. They got a name for a society where corporations are protected more than the individual... fascism



whew that's enough for me, I should stop right there, make my blood pressure go down.

please discuss...

 

Darque Pervert

First of all, your definition of fascism is skewed. Let's get that cleared up first, shall we?

Second, if someone creates a product or realizes a new market for an existing product, why shouldn't they be able to sell it at whatever price the market will bear?

A free market fosters innovation and creativity because there is a motivation to create: money. In a non-free-market economy, any innovations are swept up by the state to be exploited, buried or whatever. In a free market economy, such as that in the US, an inventor or creator can receive whatever the market will bear for their creations. If someone is willing to pay far more for something than it is actually worth, then the creator wins out.
Is that the fault of the state? I certainly don't think so.

While it's true that corporations, particularly large ones, receive many benefits & protections from the government, they are also scrutinized far more closely than a small business by that same government.

Now, lets look at why corporations, small companies and even small business have protections under the law at both federal and state levels.
Those companies employ people.
By employing people, they make more products or perform more services, which means more income.
More income means growth.
Growth means they need to hire more employees.
And so on.

It's the basis of the economy, like it or not.


If I may ask, what spurred your passionate, if not factually incorrect, mini-rant? What corporation screwed you over and how?

__________________

Life is always a spiral. It's the choices of the individual as to whether that spiral is aimed up or down.

THC Fiend

because then you end up with thousands of working hours being wasted on a spork or a pen with fluffy fur on the end.

the result of which is that the total hours worked by the nation increases and the only benefit of this increase is that our pens are fancy and we don't have to keep switching utensils when we want some soup.

__________________
"Nietzsche is dead."
-God

brevity is... wit

Darque Pervert

And if someone with the financial means is willing to pay top-dollar for that fancy, fuzzy pen or spork or whatever, how is that bad?
Not all innovation or creativity benefits society as a whole.

Let's take your example and apply it to automobiles.
Would you rather have everyone drive a car that looks exactly the same, yet is efficient, utilitarian and adequately does the job?
Or would you rather have a choice between an ultra-efficient hybrid economy car, or a off-road pickup truck, or a roomy SUV that can carry a soccer team or a zippy sports car that will outrun damn near anything, all of which have loads of unnecessary features (power windows & locks, metallic paint, premium entertainment system, power folding rear seats, sunroof, and so on)?

In a free market economy, ANYONE can participate. If people choose not to participate and go hungry as a result, why should that responsibility be placed on the shoulders of those that do?
Sure, there are victims of circumstance. I've been there, believe me. I wholy understand shit happening in such abundance that you're put in a hole that seems impossible to pull yourself out of it. I can definitely see how someone in that ituation might choose to say "fuck it" and simply give up on trying.

My point is that there is opportunity for everyone. However, it's up to the individual to take advantage of it.
If someone takes advantage of it by selling fuzzy-ended sporks to rich idiots, more power to them.
And if someone else takes advantage to develop a more fuel-efficient automobile or a strain f wheat that produces more yield or building materials that would ultimately lower housing costs, more power to them, too.

green medicine

"Fascism should also be called Corporatism because it is the merger of State and Corporate power" - Benito Mussolini.

DP, I didn't offer a definition of Fascism just described one attribute of it. I'll choose to ignore your condescending tone and continue to discuss. You go on to defend the free market as an idea when I said that I am for it in principle with certain limitations. I appreciate your points but it didn't exactly address what I wrote. Of course, anyone should be able to create a product and sell it at whatever price the market dictates. my point: with certain limitations for certain types of industries/products.

I'm all for the free market and competition, I just think there are certain industries that leaving it up to will of the free market is not in our best interests. The free market like any system is imperfect and we can improve upon it. Perhaps I should have been more specific.
One example of this is public utilities, inho, no private company should own utilities, or they should be heavily regulated. Companies operating on profit motive will cut corners and when it comes to clean water, electricity, etc.. we can't afford that. Another example: we have the technology for fuel efficient or non-polluting cars yet we are waiting around till the free market decides it's profitable. We don't have that luxury. Fianance the research and get it on the market!
My only point is that if we only allow profit motive to drive everything we are not allowing the best attributes of ourselves as humans to flourish in society. I'm not advocating communism, just that we have the free market with humanistic and community driven limits inherent where we see fit.

 

Darque Pervert

Sorry, but I'm not going to give much creedence to a fascist's definition of fascism.

You're proposing some pretty limiting ideas...

If a private company can produce, transmit and deliver a utility (electricity, natural gas, water, telephone service, etc.) in such a way that it benefits the consumer, then why shouldn't there be private utility companies?
When I lived in Texas, utilities were deregulated. There are "niche" electric providers.
One provided electricity only from renewable resources, such as wind farms and hydroelectric.
One company charged higher rates but would provided power to higher-risk customers such as those with bad credit that can't get electric service from the other providers.
Yet another company provided power at the lowest possible rate to the consumer.
Tell me how that is a bad thing for anyone? There are more companies providing more jobs for more people, as well as giving consumers a choice.
If the state runs a utility, then you have one choice: the state. Let's say you get on their blacklist because you get waaaay behind on your bill, what other choice do you have for power?

The competition between utility companies puts them in a position where they have to compete for your business. They all know that the most business will go to the company that charges the lowest rate in most cases, so they will work to offer that.
The ones that choose to offer some other value (such as "green" energy" may charge a higher rate, but also market to those who are willing to pay a little more to lower their personal impact on this planet.

One thing that is limiting the implementation of "green" vehicles (notably electric or hydrogen-powered vehicles) is the infrastructure. A hydrogen or electric powered car is useless without a means of recharging or refueling the vehicle.
Presently, we have assloads of gas stations all over the world, so being able to refuel your gasoline-powered car is simple.

How many recharging stations for electric cars have you seen?
Better yet, how many hydrogen refueling stations have you seen?
Not very many, if any at all. Why? They are expensive, and nobody wants to invest in them because nobody knows what transportation technology(ies) will become the de facto standard, if any. It would suck to drop billions of dollars into an infrastructure for hydrogen delivery only to have some quantum nuclear propulsion technology revolutionize the transportation industry in a few short years.



Frankly, the U.S. government is so bloated and shortsighted, I don't want them running anytihing other than necessary federal services such as national defense, immigration and legislation. I don't want the gov't providing health insurance, utilities, food, transportation, or anything else.
Why?
They have a long track record of fucking things up. Politicians have a propencity to become corrupt, which spills over into government agencies.

Take a look at Canada's health system. While it's certainly not failing, their system of socialized medicine has some pretty serious flaws:
1 - There aren't enough doctors because graduating medical students know they can make far more money by practicing in the U.S.. That means that patients seeking treatment are subjected to longer wait times and less personalized care.

2 - The free health care has to make choices based sctrictly on dollars and cents, disregarding the personal choices of the individual. Ask a Canadian who has a family member with terminal cancer about where they get their treatment because the Canadian gov't won't pay for treatment for someone who is "just going to die".


Even with essential services, choice is a good thing. The more choices consumers have, the better off they are.

green medicine

This is exactly where you and I disagree. And I can tell by the length and breadth of your response that we will never see eye to eye. I respect what you have to say though, and that you can back it up.

Do we leave these necessary tasks to the gov which wastes money and fucks up occassionally
or leave it up to corporations whose only concern is making money? and who also fuck up all the time.
yeah, let's let Enron, Halliburton or Bechtel to run our utilities.. Just ask the Iraqi people how that's working out for them.

I maintain that certain industries should not be privatized or completely profit driven.

Trocisp

All of these things are problems I've grappled with myself in thinking of a decent form of Government and Economy. As it stands now, all we have is the lesser of many evils.

"Democracy is the absolute worst form of government, Until you consider the others." -Winston Churchill

The same can be said about Capitalism, of course. The sad fact of it is, that people do the minimum needed to benefit themselves, so if everything is provided for them... they won't do anything.

Currently, Free Market (restricted free market) economies work best. I think that certain things need to be regulated as they are. And I think a few more should be regulated and monitored, Health Care is one of them.

My solution?
There's absolutely no reason that humans shouldn't be able to Automate the basics of life, increasing overall efficiency and lowering the necessary work done. This, of course, would put an end to the economy as we know it, because all labor-jobs would be kaput. We could live greener, more efficient lifestyles and reduce the overall pollutants we put out as a society.

ITG

A lot of people rant and rave about free market economies, but they ignore a simple fact- there has never been a truly free market economy.

A proper laissez faire economy provides competition, which actually creates lower prices for a higher quality product. It also creates better job conditions for workers who can simply decide to go elsewhere. The Great Depression is not usually attributed to the free market, but to the governments meddling in it. The poor job conditions of the industrial revolution existed because, again, government intervention- the laws merely favored the companies until the were changed due to the lobbying of unions.

Also, you terribly misconstrued that quote by Mussolini. It means that the government and corporations combine... which is the absolute opposite of a free market. A free market has ZERO touching of state and business.

The only real problem with capitalism is the chance of a monopoly, which kills almost all of it's benefits. But socialism is just a definite monopoly of the state. So why would people choose a guaranteed monopoly over a possible one?

EDIT- And how is a free market economy a pre-depression philosophy? One of the greatest philosphers on the subject, Milton Friedman, came into his own AFTER the depression.

__________________

It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul.

Darque Pervert

At least we can agree to disagree.

I hope you're aware that none of those companies provide utility service to anyone.
Halliburton and Bechtel are contractors/construction companies. They build the structures and facilites that provide the utilities and even deliver the utility service to customers. Sure, they have ties to high-ranking gov't officials, notably the Vice President, but haven't done faulty work, to the best of my knowledge.

Enron was an energy trading company that cooked their books and got busted. Part of their "creative accounting" was using funds that were "borrowed" from the retirement accounts of employees to cover losses in energy markets.

I'm certain that Halliburton and/or Bechtel would do an acceptable job of rebuilding Iraq back to a reasonably modernized industrial nation, if they weren't constantly being shot at or blown up.