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**dedbr** · 02-10-2008, 10:38 AM

What's going on with this flood into our country of products that say, "Made In China" on them?

Does this bother some people the way it does me?

The economy isn't doing so well, people aren't spending, their worrying about their money. Does it bother you that our jobs are now going in to a hostile country like China?

I am involved in knives and the knife business as a hobby. I have just read that almost all of the future american cutlery will have at least the blades made in China, if not the whole knife. Now before you say big deal, this isn't something that has happened in a couple of years span, it seems like it's happened within the last two years or less.

How many american jobs does this represent? The exact figures are not available yet, but is this a natonwide trend? How many millions of products do we buy off of China now, and how many american jobs is that?

The main question I have is this; should we even deal with them after the numerous and continuous human rights violations inflicted on the people of this country by it's government? Here in Ohio there seems to be a vocal movement among small business owners to say no.

Here in southern Ohio, (better known as the gateway to the boondocks), we are seeing Wal-mart stores completely packed with products from China. There are a lot of small businesses and owners around here that won't have a Chinese product in their store. It has really raised the question of, Do I want to have things in my home from China? I know those people are extremely poor for the most part, and really need the jobs, but should we, thru our commerce, support the government they have? A government that is the main line of supply to North Korea?

The government that was responsible for Tianamen Square?

China went from number nine to number two on the worldwide oil consumption list. It's becasue of their attempt to bring communism into the twenty-first century economically. They will also be turning into the worlds next big market place because they will be buying more high dollar goods.

We see a recall of a Chinese product that contains lead or some other toxin in it every week it seems. Is that what we're going to get for our cheaper chinese products, lead poisononing?

Some Where In Ded Land.......

Guided By Voices · 02-10-2008, 04:28 PM

With the weak dollar, the US has to take advantage of bring back some of these jobs in America, and decrease the trade deficit. It's easier now to close some of these manufacturing plants in China, and call-centers in India and bring them back to the US. Outsourcing doesn't affect the number of jobs, because those moves will create jobs in the service industry. It's the quality of jobs that is affected, and if this trend continues, the middle class will be eliminated.

**Hashishi** · 02-10-2008, 04:59 PM

All it implies is a trend towards retail and quaternary industry in the West and a move away from secondary industries- creating a vacuum which China is filling. The US and the EU still possess the world`s largest primary industrial sectors. No direct cause for concern there in regards to the economy.

As for ethics: try presenting your argument to Western importers. I`m sure you`ll get a good chuckle before they hit the panic button.

Viper420 · 02-10-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dedbr

What's going on with this flood into our country of products that say, "Made In China" on them?

Does this bother some people the way it does me?

The economy isn't doing so well, people aren't spending, their worrying about their money. Does it bother you that our jobs are now going in to a hostile country like China?

I am involved in knives and the knife business as a hobby. I have just read that almost all of the future american cutlery will have at least the blades made in China, if not the whole knife. Now before you say big deal, this isn't something that has happened in a couple of years span, it seems like it's happened within the last two years or less.

How many american jobs does this represent? The exact figures are not available yet, but is this a natonwide trend? How many millions of products do we buy off of China now, and how many american jobs is that?

The main question I have is this; should we even deal with them after the numerous and continuous human rights violations inflicted on the people of this country by it's government? Here in Ohio there seems to be a vocal movement among small business owners to say no.

Here in southern Ohio, (better known as the gateway to the boondocks), we are seeing Wal-mart stores completely packed with products from China. There are a lot of small businesses and owners around here that won't have a Chinese product in their store. It has really raised the question of, Do I want to have things in my home from China? I know those people are extremely poor for the most part, and really need the jobs, but should we, thru our commerce, support the government they have? A government that is the main line of supply to North Korea?

The government that was responsible for Tianamen Square?

China went from number nine to number two on the worldwide oil consumption list. It's becasue of their attempt to bring communism into the twenty-first century economically. They will also be turning into the worlds next big market place because they will be buying more high dollar goods.

We see a recall of a Chinese product that contains lead or some other toxin in it every week it seems. Is that what we're going to get for our cheaper chinese products, lead poisononing?

Some Where In Ded Land.......

I'm so with you on this one. China is destroying our manufacturing ability and flooding our market with cheap (in more ways than one) goods. Walmarts are popping up everywhere. I live within 5 miles of 4 Walmarts!! What's up with that?

Viper420 · 02-10-2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hashishi

All it implies is a trend towards retail and quaternary industry in the West and a move away from secondary industries- creating a vacuum which China is filling. The US and the EU still possess the world`s largest primary industrial sectors. No direct cause for concern there in regards to the economy.

As for ethics: try presenting your argument to Western importers. I`m sure you`ll get a good chuckle before they hit the panic button.

Yep, lets not mess with the bottom line. China is writing a lot of checks in this country and sending us a bunch of money in the form of loans. The question is this: What happens when those loans come due? What influence will they have in this country as a result of all that debt?

**dedbr** · 02-12-2008, 02:30 AM

Hash.....

Quote:

All it implies is a trend towards retail and quaternary industry in the West and a move away from secondary industries- creating a vacuum which China is filling. The US and the EU still possess the world`s largest primary industrial sectors. No direct cause for concern there in regards to the economy.

Then what's happening to the economy when local people who are supposed to be spending their money are saying no to Chinese merchandise? I don't think the people here are as accepting of the shift in "cheap" to China as would be assumed.....

Quote:

As for ethics: try presenting your argument to Western importers. I`m sure you`ll get a good chuckle before they hit the panic button.

I won't argue about shit. Pass a big tax to make the US workers competitive in the foreign labor markets........

Besides, we make better things than foreigners do, we just value our labor and time more. It's easy to get a guy to work for a dollar a day if he is flat broke and starving. To me, it just goes back to the slave labor they have been famous for with their working class for years. They dont get a choice about where they work, nor choice about pay, the "state" handles all your money worries, comrade.

And of course, just like all the other oppressed peoples of the world, the Chinese have to take their licks like anyone else.......I just wish they'd quit buying up so much oil.......make 'em peddle bicycles. I'd rather they were bi-pedal anyway.......

Viper...in Banned Land.....

Quote:

Yep, lets not mess with the bottom line. China is writing a lot of checks in this country and sending us a bunch of money in the form of loans. The question is this: What happens when those loans come due? What influence will they have in this country as a result of all that debt?

I don't know about the debt. I guess we can hope they don't end up supplying us with something we can't do without. Their standing army is larger than ours. Their navy is nothing to sneeze at, and they do have nuclear weapons according to Jane's. I think we're really being premature about the buddy-buddy stuff. They are, after all, supplying the North Korean's with the lightbulbs they use every year......All two-hundred of them.......

An economic war is more scary than a ground war, especially since the war debt is starting to creep up on us and destroy the housing market, one of the major economic indicator's of our economy.....

Some Where In Ded Land.........

loki · 02-12-2008, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dedbr

An economic war is more scary than a ground war, especially since the war debt is starting to creep up on us and destroy the housing market, one of the major economic indicator's of our economy.....

Some Where In Ded Land.........

Real as this threat may be, it seems to me that it takes too large a portion of the population until they are directly affected to notice-never mind the indicators-and even longer to care. Some people do, but the reason we still are getting stuff from China is that we're buying it. Maybe if more people thought about where the products they buy come from and were conscious about their purchasing power, it would bother them.

MasterCylinder · 02-12-2008, 04:34 AM

Haven't heard much about the "Little Red Book" anymore in China, I guess that went out of style after Chairman Mao bit the dust. So what happened? Mao dies and Sam Walton takes over? They have no respect for intellectual property rights. Hell, a movie comes out on Monday and by Tuesday its on a Chinese website for free.

**Trocisp** · 02-14-2008, 01:55 PM

In all fairness, Americans have to respect for Intellectual poperty rights either, MasterCylinder. And if that's a reason not to deal with someone, we sure as hel shouldn't shouldn't deal with the swedish, who are possibly the only reason that Torrents have a foothold in peer to peer File sharing today.

I see no reason not to deal with china, I'm currently of the opinion that it's not the governments place to fiddle around in the private sector. The federal government is there to protect the citizens (including health care

) and make sure the states don't impose civil liberty violating laws on the citizens, the state laws are there to pass laws and criminal statute. My opinion is, of course, subject to change any time. :P

**Hashishi** · 02-15-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterCylinder

Haven't heard much about the "Little Red Book" anymore in China, I guess that went out of style after Chairman Mao bit the dust. So what happened? Mao dies and Sam Walton takes over? They have no respect for intellectual property rights. Hell, a movie comes out on Monday and by Tuesday its on a Chinese website for free.

The only difference in Western nations is that conglomerates employ teams of lawyers to prosecute those hosting pirated materials. There is comparatively little (if no) state intervention in internet piracy here or in China. That`s up to the retailers, as far as I`m aware.

As for the Maoism reference- China still operates an authoritarian, cellular system of local government and exercises a dictatorial policy of land management, property and development throughout the majority of China. The cities are a far cry from rural China- where the lack of free speech is the least of their worries. They still like to execute prominent public figures (usually for corruption related issues) to keep people happy and send many others to 're-education through labour' projects.

I`d say Maoism`s still alive and well in China.

Quote:

China feels heat as activists take their cue from Spielberg
Focus on Darfur as human rights campaigners salute film director and vow to target main sponsors of the games
2-14-`08 | The Guardian

The Chinese authorities yesterday received an uncomfortable preview of the scrutiny and criticism likely to accompany the Beijing Olympics this summer as human rights groups hailed Steven Spielberg's withdrawal from his role as an artistic adviser to the games.

Campaign groups vowed to turn their attention to the major Olympic sponsors and other high-profile supporters of the games as they celebrated the international reaction to Spielberg's decision.

The director stepped down from his role as artistic adviser to Beijing late on Tuesday, citing his opposition to China's support for the Sudanese regime responsible for the humanitarian crisis in Darfur. He accused China of not doing enough to press Sudan to end the "continuing human suffering" in the troubled region. China imports two-thirds of Sudan's oil and in return is said to be the African country's biggest arms supplier.

Spielberg's move, taken after months of sustained pressure form his Hollywood peers, led by actor Mia Farrow, apparently took Beijing by surprise.

The state-controlled media pointedly ignored the story and the Beijing organising committee for the Olympic games is understood to be preparing a statement which is likely to be issued this morning.

However, Spielberg's action is bound to anger and alarm the authorities as it comes amid growing complaints about Beijing's record on human rights and Tibet, and is likely to encourage attempts to use the Olympics as leverage on those issues. There is particular concern that the government is cracking down on critics to ensure that they do not embarrass it during the games.

Human rights groups vowed to do just that by targeting other high-profile institutions and individuals: "Olympic corporate sponsors are putting their reputations at risk unless they work to convince the Chinese government to uphold the human rights pledges it made to bring the games to Beijing," said Minky Worden, media director at Human Rights Watch. "Human rights are under attack in China and Olympic sponsors should use their considerable leverage to persuade Beijing to change policy." Major Olympic sponsors include household names such as Coca-Cola, McDonalds and Kodak.

Dr James Smith, chief executive of the Aegis Trust, which campaigns to prevent genocide around the world, said: "This is the biggest message to the Chinese that turning a blind eye to the atrocities in Darfur is unacceptable. Spielberg has demonstrated that collective responsibility means everyone's responsibility."

Spielberg's decision, declared in the pages of the Hollywood journal Variety, comes in a week in which the political ramifications of China's hosting of the games moved to the forefront of public attention. While the Chinese consider the Olympics a coming-out party that will mark their emergence as a major player on the world stage, human rights groups and non-governmental organisations aim to draw attention to Beijing's failings. The arrival of 20,000 journalists in China this summer - two for every athlete - provides opponents of the Chinese government with an unprecedented opportunity to make their case.

Criticism of China's human rights record has coalesced around the issue of Sudan, which Beijing has enthusiastically supported through trade, arms sales and advocacy at the United Nations. More than 200,000 people are thought to have been killed and a further 2.5 million forced from their homes in the five-year conflict between Sudan's Arab-dominated government and Darfur's black African rebels.

Spielberg's announcement coincided with a global day of action in more than a dozen major cities around the world by opponents of the Sudanese regime who called on China to help end the Darfur crisis. The British Olympic Association was forced to rewrite its athletes' contract for Beijing this week after widespread criticism of a clause that barred athletes from discussing "politically sensitive" issues.

Dr David Zweig, director of the Centre on China's Transnational Relations at the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, said he believed Spielberg's actions would be damaging: "Clearly, Spielberg is a big enough and important enough person that this decision certainly colours the world's view of the Olympics and brings politics front and centre - something the government would have preferred not to see. Internationally, their message is that China is here on the world stage, is a major player and can pull off a world-class event ... they know their international prestige is on the line."

There is deep concern in China that athletes will use the platform of medal success to denounce the country, and at least one campaign group, Team Darfur, is recruiting athletes to do so. British badminton player Richard Vaughan, who hopes to make the Olympic team, said he would defy an attempt at gagging him and speak out about Sudan if asked.

British ministers insisted yesterday that the government would not support any call for a boycott of the Beijing games, but Andy Burnham, the culture secretary, acknowledged that Spielberg had made a point. "He obviously felt very strongly about it and has now very successfully raised the issue," he said. "I don't think you can make a clean separation between representative sport and the situation in any particular country. The world's a complicated place and we have to work together to address those problems."

Downing Street would not comment but the prime minister's official spokesman said last month that Gordon Brown had "no intention of supporting a boycott of the Beijing Olympics".

Ministers believe that the Olympics can spur China to do more on human rights, as well as draw attention to their failings.

Brown argues privately that democracy can emerge slowly in China, but acknowledges that there is work to do. Foreign secretary David Miliband, who is heading to China in the next fortnight for a week-long visit, said in a lecture at Oxford this week: "Now, with the economic success of China, we can no longer take the forward march of democracy for granted." Miliband will meet his Chinese counterpart, Yang Jiechi, for talks. Darfur will be on the agenda.

Brown's officials insist he did raise human rights on his recent two-day visit to Beijing and Shanghai, but details are scarce. Ed Davey, the Liberal Democrats' foreign affairs spokesman, said: "Gordon Brown's silence on human rights and Darfur during his recent Chinese trip stands in sharp contrast to his hand-wringing over Darfur when back in Britain."

The International Olympic Committee maintains that staging the games in China will bring benefits. In December IOC president Jacques Rogge told the Guardian the games would be a "force for good". "But they will not solve all the world's problems."

Quote:

Beijing condemns Olympic row 'ulterior motives'
2-14-`07 | The Guardian

China today expressed regret over Steven Spielberg's resignation as artistic consultant to the Beijing Olympics over Darfur, and accused critics of its policy in Sudan of having "ulterior motives".

The government's response is an attempt to minimise the public relations fallout from Spielberg's withdrawal, which has drawn attention to China's poor human rights record at home and abroad less than half a year before the games begin.

The Hollywood director said he was quitting because Beijing had not done enough to halt the killings in the Darfur, where Khartoum-linked militias are fighting rebel groups.

China is thought to have more influence over Sudan than any other country because it is a major buyer of oil and supplier of arms to Khartoum.

The foreign ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said Spielberg's actions were misguided because China had worked alongside the UN to try to resolve the crisis in Sudan and to provide aid to those affected.
"It is understandable if some people do not understand the Chinese government policy on Darfur, but I am afraid that some people may have ulterior motives, and this we cannot accept," he told a news conference.

His comments followed editorials in the state-controlled media condemning attempts to politicise the Olympics, which China wants to use as an opportunity to show off its economic development.

But human rights groups are lining up to link the Olympics to abuses in Tibet, crackdowns on the Falun Gong spiritual movement, environmental problems and China's support for Sudan, Burma and other governments deemed repressive in the west.

Earlier this week, a coalition of Hollywood stars, Nobel Peace prizewinners, politicians and athletes sent an open letter to president Hu Jintao calling on China to do more to ease the suffering in Darfur.

The petition was delivered to the Chinese mission to the UN in New York by the actor Mia Farrow and other activists.
Diplomats and UN officials say China is playing a more constructive role in Sudan than a year ago. The Beijing Olympic organising committee said those efforts should be appreciated.

"The Chinese government has made unremitting efforts to resolve the Darfur issue, an obvious fact to the international community, which holds unprejudiced opinions on this issue," the committee said in a statement today.

"Linking the Darfur issue to the Olympic Games will not help to resolve this issue and is not in line with the Olympic spirit that separates sports from politics."

The organisers voiced disappointment at Spielberg's resignation but said preparations towards "excellent ceremonies" were proceeding smoothly.

China's heavily controlled media made scant mention of the withdrawal of the Hollywood director. And, told about the matter, locals shrugged off the impact.

"I don't care what Spielberg does or doesn't do in China," said Hui li, a marketing manager. This is politicising the Olympics. China doesn't want that. It's wrong. The central spirit of the games is "faster, higher, stronger". That is what we should focus on. It is wrong to bring in politics. We just want to make friends."

View Poll Results: Should We Deal With China?
No, not until they clean up their act!	14	93.33%
Yes, there's money to be made for the US.	1	6.67%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

02-10-2008, 10:38 AM	#1
dedbr Domestic War Veteran Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 6,921 Grams: 47,113.85 Groans: 11 Groaned at 22 Times in 15 Posts Thanks: 2,464 Thanked 2,279 Times in 1,027 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	China What's going on with this flood into our country of products that say, "Made In China" on them? Does this bother some people the way it does me? The economy isn't doing so well, people aren't spending, their worrying about their money. Does it bother you that our jobs are now going in to a hostile country like China? I am involved in knives and the knife business as a hobby. I have just read that almost all of the future american cutlery will have at least the blades made in China, if not the whole knife. Now before you say big deal, this isn't something that has happened in a couple of years span, it seems like it's happened within the last two years or less. How many american jobs does this represent? The exact figures are not available yet, but is this a natonwide trend? How many millions of products do we buy off of China now, and how many american jobs is that? The main question I have is this; should we even deal with them after the numerous and continuous human rights violations inflicted on the people of this country by it's government? Here in Ohio there seems to be a vocal movement among small business owners to say no. Here in southern Ohio, (better known as the gateway to the boondocks), we are seeing Wal-mart stores completely packed with products from China. There are a lot of small businesses and owners around here that won't have a Chinese product in their store. It has really raised the question of, Do I want to have things in my home from China? I know those people are extremely poor for the most part, and really need the jobs, but should we, thru our commerce, support the government they have? A government that is the main line of supply to North Korea? The government that was responsible for Tianamen Square? China went from number nine to number two on the worldwide oil consumption list. It's becasue of their attempt to bring communism into the twenty-first century economically. They will also be turning into the worlds next big market place because they will be buying more high dollar goods. We see a recall of a Chinese product that contains lead or some other toxin in it every week it seems. Is that what we're going to get for our cheaper chinese products, lead poisononing? Some Where In Ded Land....... __________________ Sometimes you can cut your own throat with your tongue..... So remember to check out our most wonderful Posting Guidelines!

02-10-2008, 04:59 PM	#3
Hashishi Unf*ckwit'able Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,872 Grams: 21,643.40 Groans: 3 Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts Thanks: 704 Thanked 852 Times in 501 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	All it implies is a trend towards retail and quaternary industry in the West and a move away from secondary industries- creating a vacuum which China is filling. The US and the EU still possess the world`s largest primary industrial sectors. No direct cause for concern there in regards to the economy. As for ethics: try presenting your argument to Western importers. I`m sure you`ll get a good chuckle before they hit the panic button. __________________ SWP "I'm not into this detail stuff. I'm more concepty." -- "If I know the answer I'll tell you the answer, and if I don't, I'll just respond, cleverly." -- "Secretary Powell and I agree on every single issue that has ever been before this administration except for those instances where Colin's still learning." -- "As we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns: the ones we don't know we don't know."

02-14-2008, 01:55 PM	#9
Trocisp Subscriber Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,947 Grams: 25,662.95 Groans: 20 Groaned at 26 Times in 20 Posts Thanks: 715 Thanked 1,180 Times in 773 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	In all fairness, Americans have to respect for Intellectual poperty rights either, MasterCylinder. And if that's a reason not to deal with someone, we sure as hel shouldn't shouldn't deal with the swedish, who are possibly the only reason that Torrents have a foothold in peer to peer File sharing today. I see no reason not to deal with china, I'm currently of the opinion that it's not the governments place to fiddle around in the private sector. The federal government is there to protect the citizens (including health care ) and make sure the states don't impose civil liberty violating laws on the citizens, the state laws are there to pass laws and criminal statute. My opinion is, of course, subject to change any time. :P __________________ "No references to the need to fight terror can be an argument for restricting human rights." - *Vladimir Putin* "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - *Sir Winston Churchill* "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - *Friedrich Nietzsche* "Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months." - *Oscar Wilde* "I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who overcomes his enemies." - *Aristotle*

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02-10-2008, 04:28 PM	#2
Guided By Voices New Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2 Grams: 641.05 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	With the weak dollar, the US has to take advantage of bring back some of these jobs in America, and decrease the trade deficit. It's easier now to close some of these manufacturing plants in China, and call-centers in India and bring them back to the US. Outsourcing doesn't affect the number of jobs, because those moves will create jobs in the service industry. It's the quality of jobs that is affected, and if this trend continues, the middle class will be eliminated.

02-12-2008, 04:34 AM	#8
MasterCylinder Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 375 Grams: 1,331.33 Groans: 2 Groaned at 51 Times in 24 Posts Thanks: 25 Thanked 72 Times in 60 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Haven't heard much about the "Little Red Book" anymore in China, I guess that went out of style after Chairman Mao bit the dust. So what happened? Mao dies and Sam Walton takes over? They have no respect for intellectual property rights. Hell, a movie comes out on Monday and by Tuesday its on a Chinese website for free.

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