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**sterbo** · 03-28-2008, 12:46 AM

Pick your poison: you're the periodic paranoid obsessing over all those left leaning boogiemen out there trying to steal your guns and rejoice in your subjugation or you can't stand Obama because, well, you can't readily admit your true inner conflict so pretending he isn't a defender of the Sword is your easy way out.
Either way, your well trammeled path is just that. New life has moved on while you fidget and weep your tired refrain. No matter,
Change is upon us, one way or another -
and while you man your lonely outpost?
.
.
.
'Prayers' just won't do
Tim Rutten

February 16, 2008

It's been a particularly grim and bloody month on one of the world's great killing fields -- the United States of America.

On Friday, Los Angeles paused for the largest police funeral in its history when it buried Officer Randal Simmons, a 51-year-old father of two and the LAPD's first SWAT team member to die in the line of duty. Simmons was shot dead and Officer James Veenstra was badly wounded when they -- along with others in their unit -- rushed into a San Fernando Valley home where a disturbed young man had killed three members of his family and was believed to be holding others hostage.

In Oxnard this week, an eighth-grader walked into a classroom and fatally shot a classmate in the head, apparently because the boy was gay.

On Thursday, at Northern Illinois University, a graduate student walked into a lecture hall, shot five students to death and wounded 16 other people before committing suicide.

There have been three other campus shootings since Feb. 8, including one at Louisiana Technical College, where a woman shot two students to death before killing herself.

Earlier in the month, a gunman in Kirkwood, Mo., burst into a City Council meeting, killed five people and wounded the town's mayor. A few days before that, a gunman herded five women in a suburban Chicago clothing store into a back room and shot them all to death in what authorities believe was a botched robbery.

All these wrenchingly tragic crimes are linked by a common factor -- the ubiquity of guns in America. Given that we're in the midst of the most hotly contested presidential campaign in recent memory, you'd think that all this bloodletting might become a campaign issue. If you thought that, you'd have reckoned without regard to the gun lobby's near-total victory among the politicians of both political parties. The 2nd Amendment fundamentalists who cluster around the National Rifle Assn. are the most successful single-issue constituency in modern American politics.

The truth is that guns make the malicious, the malcontent and the mad powerful. They confer the power of life and death on the demented and deranged -- and yet we do nothing. There are more guns circulating in the U.S. today than ever before, somewhere around 250 million, according to projections by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

The only one of the candidates who even nodded to the Illinois college massacre was Sen. Barack Obama, who happens to vote an easy drive from the campus. Campaigning Friday in Wisconsin, he said his "prayers" were with the victims and their families, then quickly added that he believes the 2nd Amendment confers an "individual right" to gun ownership.

The reason for that bob and weave is that the latter point is the gun lobby's current cause célèbre. Over the years, 11 of the 13 federal appellate districts have held that 2nd Amendment rights are collective, pertaining, as the Constitution says, to the maintenance of "a well ordered militia." Recently, however, a court in the District of Columbia struck down that jurisdiction's handgun ban, ruling that the 2nd Amendment confers individual rights to gun ownership. The case -- District of Columbia vs. Heller -- is before the U.S Supreme Court. Vice President Dick Cheney, 55 senators and 250 members of the House have filed a brief supporting the individual rights position to which Obama hastened to show such deference.

It isn't as if our lawmakers aren't willing to do something to protect our students, however. Twelve state legislatures -- those in Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Virginia and Washington -- are considering bills that would allow students who obtain concealed-weapons permits to carry guns on campus. Presumably, they'll only fire in self-defense.

How many times can we really stomach another politician telling us -- as Obama did Friday and President Bush did after Virginia Tech -- that their "prayers" are with the victims of that day's gun-inflicted atrocity? Prayers won't bring the dead back or make the living safer. Our children don't need prayers; they need leaders with a modicum of moral courage.

Nobody is asking anybody to commit political suicide. But it would be better than edifying to watch just one of these dreary temporizers exhibit a fraction of the courage Randal Simmons, James Veenstra and their comrades showed when they put themselves at risk for people they believed were hostage to violence.

At the moment, we are a nation held hostage by the pandemic of gun violence. We need leaders brave enough to admit that, and to offer our children something more than a collective shrug and the chance to join the arms race that has made our school campuses a killing ground.

timothy.rutten@latimes.com

.

Andrew87 · 03-28-2008, 01:26 AM

Quote:

On Friday, Los Angeles paused for the largest police funeral in its history when it buried Officer Randal Simmons, a 51-year-old father of two and the LAPD's first SWAT team member to die in the line of duty. Simmons was shot dead and Officer James Veenstra was badly wounded when they -- along with others in their unit -- rushed into a San Fernando Valley home where a disturbed young man had killed three members of his family and was believed to be holding others hostage.

Quote:

In Oxnard this week, an eighth-grader walked into a classroom and fatally shot a classmate in the head, apparently because the boy was gay.

On Thursday, at Northern Illinois University, a graduate student walked into a lecture hall, shot five students to death and wounded 16 other people before committing suicide.

There have been three other campus shootings since Feb. 8, including one at Louisiana Technical College, where a woman shot two students to death before killing herself.

Earlier in the month, a gunman in Kirkwood, Mo., burst into a City Council meeting, killed five people and wounded the town's mayor. A few days before that, a gunman herded five women in a suburban Chicago clothing store into a back room and shot them all to death in what authorities believe was a botched robbery.

All these wrenchingly tragic crimes are linked by a common factor -- the ubiquity of guns in America.

So that common factor is the availability of firearms rather than the seemingly obvious social and psychological factors? Come on sterbo, I know you're smarter than that.

But regardless, I don't believe an argument exists that is worthy of forcing every law-abiding citizen to have their right to self-defense pillaged due solely to the actions of a few lunatics. That is exactly the sort of populist-laden tripe that is ruining this country. A GUN IS AN INANIMATE OBJECT. THE ONLY WAY IT WILL KILL IS IF IT IS MADE TO BY A PERSON.

Does anyone take the time to notice that the VAST majority of these shootings take place in so-called "gun-free zones?" When is the last time you heard about a shooting at a gun show or at a police station? I wonder if it's 'cause these shooters know they'd have their asses handed to them within a matter of seconds??

Quote:

The truth is that guns make the malicious, the malcontent and the mad powerful.

And the otherwise defenseless equal, and the criminals nervous, I can go on if you'd like....

Quote:

The reason for that bob and weave is that the latter point is the gun lobby's current cause célèbre. Over the years, 11 of the 13 federal appellate districts have held that 2nd Amendment rights are collective, pertaining, as the Constitution says, to the maintenance of "a well ordered militia."

Hopefully you aren't referring to the National Guard - which was created 130 years AFTER the 2A was ratified.

Quote:

It isn't as if our lawmakers aren't willing to do something to protect our students, however. Twelve state legislatures -- those in Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Virginia and Washington -- are considering bills that would allow students who obtain concealed-weapons permits to carry guns on campus. Presumably, they'll only fire in self-defense.

I love how all you gun-grabbers can earnestly believe that firearms turn otherwise normal, law-abiding citizens into raving madmen.

What's that old saying? Deer hunting is a bit harder when the deer are shooting back...

MasterCylinder · 03-28-2008, 04:23 AM

Would you feel better if those people were killed with knives? Hey, if America isn't your cup of tea then you are FREE to go elsewhere.

Freedom_User · 03-28-2008, 05:02 AM

I personally, hate weapons. It's disturbing to me, that some of the best shows on television consist of nothing but weapons. "Future Weapons", wow. It's nothing but our tax dollars going into some group to find a new accurate way of killing a lot of people, and doing it accurately.

This is kinda out topic, but the same. When "Shock and Awe" first hit on the news. I was hooked to the TV because I have never seen anything like that. But the end result of innocent people dieing.

I kind of wish, our minds evolved into using our minds as a weapon. Instead of instant death and satisfaction. How sad is it, that you can be somewhere and have a person within a second take your life away.

**troublemaker_42** · 03-28-2008, 05:36 AM

Oh Sterbo, you make me laugh. Rather than answer me concerning the "leap of faith" you expected me to take, you come back with this instead. I've said all I need to concerning our future president and gun ownership. If you don't care for the Bill of Rights, in this case the 2nd Amendment, feel free to leave

However, remeber the very same Bill of Rights that allows you to post what you feel like here (within the rules) is the very same that allows me to own my guns (within the rules, as well). If freedom is for everyone, as the title suggests, my freedoms are just as important as yours. Thankfully, the Supreme Court tends to believe the same sort of things, when they have indicated that gun ownership does indeed seem to be an INDIVIDUAL right. The same document which allows you to practice the religion of your choice and to be free from random searches without cause also protect me and my right to own a gun. You can't cherry pick the Constitution and Bill of Rights to fit your particular needs. Doing so puts you on the same level as George W. Bush. You both seem to think the Constitution only applies when it fits your personal needs, the actual intention of the Document be damned.

AS far as obama's alleged support of gun rights, again, I direct you to Barack Obama on Gun Control A quick scan of Obama's voting record concerning gun rights as well as some of his quoted opinions makes it clear that he isn't nearly as "pro-gun" as this article would lead one to believe. Know your enemy. Theres no "inner conflict". I simply don't like the man's politics

Why is that so hard for you to grasp? You seem to think anyone not supporting your candidatew of choice has some misguided reason for doing so. Have you ever stopped to think that some of us might not see him as the only solution? Is it impossible for you to wrap your head around the fact not everyone is buying what Obama is trying to sell?

Oh yeah, I suggest yopu pick up a copy of "American Rifleman" published by the NRA someday. In every single issue, theres between 5-10 (usually) stries in a section called "The Armed Citizen" highlighting the stories of people who legally used their guns to defend themselves. The private ownership (and carrying) of firearms saves lives, and areas with easy to obtain CCW permits have lower crime rates than areas with strict gun control, and its been documented time and again. Gun laws only apply to those who choose to follow them. In many of the articles you mentioned, the shootings took place in "gun-free zones". Guess what? The shooters paid no heed to the rule. The only people who did were those who were victimized.

I love guns. I have since I was old enough to hold one, and have owned them since the time I was 10. My passion for guns affects every aspect of my life, from where I live to who I'll vote for. I research the issue constantly, and laugh when people think I'm being ignorant about the topic, because I am anything but. You can be in favor of all the gun restrictions you want to be, but be warned I'll be there fighting it all the way. When you live 20 miles from the nearest police officer, its ignorant to think they alone can offer you the protections you deserve as a human being. And aside from that...I find guns FUN. its RECREATION, and I've never had the urge to go on a shooting spree just because I'm surrounded with guns. I think a ban on stupidity should be enforced long before a ban on guns. Again, the liberal democrats blaming in inanimate object for the actions of an individual...as I said before...WHAT THE FUCk? Guns don't kill people...Liberals who want to disarm Americans kill people.

**sterbo** · 03-28-2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troublemaker_42

Oh Sterbo, you make me laugh. Rather than answer me concerning the "leap of faith" you expected me to take, you come back with this instead.

The ability to make people laugh is a true gift - for all involved, so you're quite welcome.
My comment re: "leap of faith" was from a different thread. If and when I feel your response there is worth another comment then rest assured I will do so.

Quote:

I've said all I need to concerning our future president and gun ownership.

Yea right

Quote:

If you don't care for the Bill of Rights, in this case the 2nd Amendment, feel free to leave

I've lost count of all the small minded rednecks who, over the years, have expressed a similar sentiment.

Quote:

However, remeber the very same Bill of Rights that allows you to post what you feel like here (within the rules) is the very same that allows me to own my guns (within the rules, as well). If freedom is for everyone, as the title suggests, my freedoms are just as important as yours.

I've never implied otherwise.

Quote:

Thankfully, the Supreme Court tends to believe the same sort of things, when they have indicated that gun ownership does indeed seem to be an INDIVIDUAL right.

LOL, nice try. However, as most people know, the Supreme Court doesn't render final judgments utilizing qualifiers like "tends" and "seems to".
And, as I've said many times, while the 2nd amendment's wording is unfortunate, there is a lot more to it than that. It's quite instructive to read throughly the thoughts and considerations of those instrumental in it's inception. Ultimately, their lack of agreement is evidenced by the ambiguity of the amendment itself.
Personally I interpret the 2nd Amendment as providing individual citizens the right to 'keep and bear arms'.

Quote:

The same document which allows you to practice the religion of your choice and to be free from random searches without cause also protect me and my right to own a gun. You can't cherry pick the Constitution and Bill of Rights to fit your particular needs.

I'm well aware of what our Constitution provides and have never once sought to "cherry pick" from it. You must be thinking of someone else.

Quote:

Doing so puts you on the same level as George W. Bush.

Wow, 'trolling' coming from an ex Admin.

, but I'm not surprised in this case.

Quote:

You both seem to think the Constitution only applies when it fits your personal needs, the actual intention of the Document be damned.

There you go again.
As you well know, equating me with the likes of George Bush is the ultimate absurdity so instead of just trying to get a rise out of me how about a modicum of respect for one who doesn't always agree with you.

Quote:

AS far as obama's alleged support of gun rights, again, I direct you to Barack Obama on Gun Control A quick scan of Obama's voting record concerning gun rights as well as some of his quoted opinions makes it clear that he isn't nearly as "pro-gun" as this article would lead one to believe.

Your surmise, of course.

Quote:

Know your enemy. Theres no "inner conflict". I simply don't like the man's politics

Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Contrary to your insinuation I not only 'grasp' it, I embrace it.

Quote:

You seem to think anyone not supporting your candidatew of choice has some misguided reason for doing so.

Some are, in my opinion misguided, and some simply have different values. Both conditions lend themselves to constructive dialog in my opinion.

Quote:

Have you ever stopped to think that some of us might not see him as the only solution? Is it impossible for you to wrap your head around the fact not everyone is buying what Obama is trying to sell?

You're really just ranting here. Of course I understand such things. Do you have anything constructive to say?

Quote:

Oh yeah, I suggest yopu pick up a copy of "American Rifleman" published by the NRA someday. In every single issue, theres between 5-10 (usually) stries in a section called "The Armed Citizen" highlighting the stories of people who legally used their guns to defend themselves. The private ownership (and carrying) of firearms saves lives, and areas with easy to obtain CCW permits have lower crime rates than areas with strict gun control, and its been documented time and again. Gun laws only apply to those who choose to follow them. In many of the articles you mentioned, the shootings took place in "gun-free zones". Guess what? The shooters paid no heed to the rule. The only people who did were those who were victimized.

Talk about "cherry picking". No one with a degree of intelligence is going to look to either the "American Rifleman" or the NRA as a bastion of unbiased presentation of the 'facts'.
That said, I never have nor do I take issue with us being able to protect our lives and property.

Quote:

I love guns. I have since I was old enough to hold one, and have owned them since the time I was 10. My passion for guns affects every aspect of my life, from where I live to who I'll vote for. I research the issue constantly, and laugh when people think I'm being ignorant about the topic, because I am anything but.

If you're implying that I'm one of those "people" then you couldn't be further off base. You seem anything but ignorant to me.

Quote:

You can be in favor of all the gun restrictions you want to be, but be warned I'll be there fighting it all the way. When you live 20 miles from the nearest police officer, its ignorant to think they alone can offer you the protections you deserve as a human being. And aside from that...I find guns FUN. its RECREATION, and I've never had the urge to go on a shooting spree just because I'm surrounded with guns. I think a ban on stupidity should be enforced long before a ban on guns.

I couldn't agree more.

Quote:

Again, the liberal democrats blaming in inanimate object for the actions of an individual...as I said before...WHAT THE FUCk? Guns don't kill people...Liberals who want to disarm Americans kill people.

Wholesale labeling of people's political persuasion is a bit like masturbation. It makes the doer feel just fine with themselves: it is absolutely useless to everyone else.

BTW,if it's of any help, I'm not a Democrat

And you're wrong: guns do kill people, along with the people who use them.

Let's see if you can parse that one correctly...
.

**dedbr** · 03-28-2008, 04:26 PM

sterbo.....

Quote:

I've lost count of all the small minded rednecks who, over the years, have expressed a similar sentiment.

Easy now sterb....I don't consider myself a "small minded redneck", but I do agree with TM about gun rights. Some people seem to be asking for a hole in the head.....That's just my opinion, of course......

Quote:

Wow, 'trolling' coming from an ex Admin.

, but I'm not surprised in this case.

Et tue, Brute? I didn't see it as trolling, I think he was comparing your thinking with the Bush phenomena where he blames the problems we have on inanimate objects, like guns knives and ball bats, my personal favorite......

Quote:

Let's see if you can parse that one correctly....

If ya keep throwing out the hook, your bound to come up with something sterb.........

And you do know what I mean......

Some Where In Ded Land..........A friendly place.......

t-1000 · 03-28-2008, 05:30 PM

Gun control does not lower the incidence of violent crimes from firearms. A simple google search will show you that gun control laws have been associated increased rates of violent crime.

Why in the world do you think laws would prevent criminals from killing people? Are you serious?

**dedbr** · 03-28-2008, 05:41 PM

Quote:

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Was the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies would be in such keeping as our souls are now.
I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” (Quoting Cesare Beccaria) The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it. Thomas Jefferson

Some Where In Ded Land.............

Freedom_User · 03-28-2008, 07:21 PM

Well, I got to say. "Gun don't kill people, people kill people. I just think it makes it easier. But, banning the right to carry one, and sending them into the black market will just make it worse.

I think it's easier for people to get a gun. I can call about 3 people on my cell, and get a unregistered gun.

03-28-2008, 12:46 AM	#1
sterbo sailor dog... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 5,016 Grams: 16,331.82 Groans: 10 Groaned at 12 Times in 10 Posts Thanks: 2,589 Thanked 3,092 Times in 1,318 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: -1.000%	Freedom is for everyone... Pick your poison: you're the periodic paranoid obsessing over all those left leaning boogiemen out there trying to steal your guns and rejoice in your subjugation or you can't stand Obama because, well, you can't readily admit your true inner conflict so pretending he isn't a defender of the Sword is your easy way out. Either way, your well trammeled path is just that. New life has moved on while you fidget and weep your tired refrain. No matter, Change is upon us, one way or another - and while you man your lonely outpost? . . . 'Prayers' just won't do Tim Rutten February 16, 2008 It's been a particularly grim and bloody month on one of the world's great killing fields -- the United States of America. On Friday, Los Angeles paused for the largest police funeral in its history when it buried Officer Randal Simmons, a 51-year-old father of two and the LAPD's first SWAT team member to die in the line of duty. Simmons was shot dead and Officer James Veenstra was badly wounded when they -- along with others in their unit -- rushed into a San Fernando Valley home where a disturbed young man had killed three members of his family and was believed to be holding others hostage. In Oxnard this week, an eighth-grader walked into a classroom and fatally shot a classmate in the head, apparently because the boy was gay. On Thursday, at Northern Illinois University, a graduate student walked into a lecture hall, shot five students to death and wounded 16 other people before committing suicide. There have been three other campus shootings since Feb. 8, including one at Louisiana Technical College, where a woman shot two students to death before killing herself. Earlier in the month, a gunman in Kirkwood, Mo., burst into a City Council meeting, killed five people and wounded the town's mayor. A few days before that, a gunman herded five women in a suburban Chicago clothing store into a back room and shot them all to death in what authorities believe was a botched robbery. All these wrenchingly tragic crimes are linked by a common factor -- the ubiquity of guns in America. Given that we're in the midst of the most hotly contested presidential campaign in recent memory, you'd think that all this bloodletting might become a campaign issue. If you thought that, you'd have reckoned without regard to the gun lobby's near-total victory among the politicians of both political parties. The 2nd Amendment fundamentalists who cluster around the National Rifle Assn. are the most successful single-issue constituency in modern American politics. The truth is that guns make the malicious, the malcontent and the mad powerful. They confer the power of life and death on the demented and deranged -- and yet we do nothing. There are more guns circulating in the U.S. today than ever before, somewhere around 250 million, according to projections by the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. The only one of the candidates who even nodded to the Illinois college massacre was Sen. Barack Obama, who happens to vote an easy drive from the campus. Campaigning Friday in Wisconsin, he said his "prayers" were with the victims and their families, then quickly added that he believes the 2nd Amendment confers an "individual right" to gun ownership. The reason for that bob and weave is that the latter point is the gun lobby's current cause célèbre. Over the years, 11 of the 13 federal appellate districts have held that 2nd Amendment rights are collective, pertaining, as the Constitution says, to the maintenance of "a well ordered militia." Recently, however, a court in the District of Columbia struck down that jurisdiction's handgun ban, ruling that the 2nd Amendment confers individual rights to gun ownership. The case -- District of Columbia vs. Heller -- is before the U.S Supreme Court. Vice President Dick Cheney, 55 senators and 250 members of the House have filed a brief supporting the individual rights position to which Obama hastened to show such deference. It isn't as if our lawmakers aren't willing to do something to protect our students, however. Twelve state legislatures -- those in Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan, Ohio, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Virginia and Washington -- are considering bills that would allow students who obtain concealed-weapons permits to carry guns on campus. Presumably, they'll only fire in self-defense. How many times can we really stomach another politician telling us -- as Obama did Friday and President Bush did after Virginia Tech -- that their "prayers" are with the victims of that day's gun-inflicted atrocity? Prayers won't bring the dead back or make the living safer. Our children don't need prayers; they need leaders with a modicum of moral courage. Nobody is asking anybody to commit political suicide. But it would be better than edifying to watch just one of these dreary temporizers exhibit a fraction of the courage Randal Simmons, James Veenstra and their comrades showed when they put themselves at risk for people they believed were hostage to violence. At the moment, we are a nation held hostage by the pandemic of gun violence. We need leaders brave enough to admit that, and to offer our children something more than a collective shrug and the chance to join the arms race that has made our school campuses a killing ground. timothy.rutten@latimes.com . __________________ In loving memory of a little village and those who called it home... ~GG

03-28-2008, 05:36 AM	#5
troublemaker_42 May be habit forming Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10,655 Grams: 17,256.02 Groans: 141 Groaned at 32 Times in 29 Posts Thanks: 851 Thanked 1,554 Times in 836 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Oh Sterbo, you make me laugh. Rather than answer me concerning the "leap of faith" you expected me to take, you come back with this instead. I've said all I need to concerning our future president and gun ownership. If you don't care for the Bill of Rights, in this case the 2nd Amendment, feel free to leave However, remeber the very same Bill of Rights that allows you to post what you feel like here (within the rules) is the very same that allows me to own my guns (within the rules, as well). If freedom is for everyone, as the title suggests, my freedoms are just as important as yours. Thankfully, the Supreme Court tends to believe the same sort of things, when they have indicated that gun ownership does indeed seem to be an INDIVIDUAL right. The same document which allows you to practice the religion of your choice and to be free from random searches without cause also protect me and my right to own a gun. You can't cherry pick the Constitution and Bill of Rights to fit your particular needs. Doing so puts you on the same level as George W. Bush. You both seem to think the Constitution only applies when it fits your personal needs, the actual intention of the Document be damned. AS far as obama's alleged support of gun rights, again, I direct you to Barack Obama on Gun Control A quick scan of Obama's voting record concerning gun rights as well as some of his quoted opinions makes it clear that he isn't nearly as "pro-gun" as this article would lead one to believe. Know your enemy. Theres no "inner conflict". I simply don't like the man's politics Why is that so hard for you to grasp? You seem to think anyone not supporting your candidatew of choice has some misguided reason for doing so. Have you ever stopped to think that some of us might not see him as the only solution? Is it impossible for you to wrap your head around the fact not everyone is buying what Obama is trying to sell? Oh yeah, I suggest yopu pick up a copy of "American Rifleman" published by the NRA someday. In every single issue, theres between 5-10 (usually) stries in a section called "The Armed Citizen" highlighting the stories of people who legally used their guns to defend themselves. The private ownership (and carrying) of firearms saves lives, and areas with easy to obtain CCW permits have lower crime rates than areas with strict gun control, and its been documented time and again. Gun laws only apply to those who choose to follow them. In many of the articles you mentioned, the shootings took place in "gun-free zones". Guess what? The shooters paid no heed to the rule. The only people who did were those who were victimized. I love guns. I have since I was old enough to hold one, and have owned them since the time I was 10. My passion for guns affects every aspect of my life, from where I live to who I'll vote for. I research the issue constantly, and laugh when people think I'm being ignorant about the topic, because I am anything but. You can be in favor of all the gun restrictions you want to be, but be warned I'll be there fighting it all the way. When you live 20 miles from the nearest police officer, its ignorant to think they alone can offer you the protections you deserve as a human being. And aside from that...I find guns FUN. its RECREATION, and I've never had the urge to go on a shooting spree just because I'm surrounded with guns. I think a ban on stupidity should be enforced long before a ban on guns. Again, the liberal democrats blaming in inanimate object for the actions of an individual...as I said before...WHAT THE FUCk? Guns don't kill people...Liberals who want to disarm Americans kill people. __________________ Remember you're a wreck, an accident forget the freak, you're just nature Keep the gun oiled and the temple clean shit, snort and blaspheme Let the heads cool and the engine run Because in the end, everything we do is just everything we've done..."Omega" by StoneSour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...ma#Gun_control www.sportsmenforObama.org Last edited by troublemaker_42 : 03-28-2008 at 09:29 AM.

03-28-2008, 05:30 PM	#8
t-1000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 765 Grams: 4,260.56 Groans: 2 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post Thanks: 39 Thanked 68 Times in 45 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Gun control does not lower the incidence of violent crimes from firearms. A simple google search will show you that gun control laws have been associated increased rates of violent crime. Why in the world do you think laws would prevent criminals from killing people? Are you serious? __________________ "i am looking for a way to get some weed into japan to chill with some friends. I am underage so i dont care if i get caught."

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03-28-2008, 04:23 AM	#3
MasterCylinder Banned Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 375 Grams: 1,331.43 Groans: 2 Groaned at 51 Times in 24 Posts Thanks: 25 Thanked 72 Times in 60 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Would you feel better if those people were killed with knives? Hey, if America isn't your cup of tea then you are FREE to go elsewhere.

03-28-2008, 05:02 AM	#4
Freedom_User Relax it, and tax it. Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,305 Grams: 7,200.94 Groans: 11 Groaned at 25 Times in 18 Posts Thanks: 465 Thanked 467 Times in 314 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I personally, hate weapons. It's disturbing to me, that some of the best shows on television consist of nothing but weapons. "Future Weapons", wow. It's nothing but our tax dollars going into some group to find a new accurate way of killing a lot of people, and doing it accurately. This is kinda out topic, but the same. When "Shock and Awe" first hit on the news. I was hooked to the TV because I have never seen anything like that. But the end result of innocent people dieing. I kind of wish, our minds evolved into using our minds as a weapon. Instead of instant death and satisfaction. How sad is it, that you can be somewhere and have a person within a second take your life away.

03-28-2008, 07:21 PM	#10
Freedom_User Relax it, and tax it. Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,305 Grams: 7,200.94 Groans: 11 Groaned at 25 Times in 18 Posts Thanks: 465 Thanked 467 Times in 314 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Well, I got to say. "Gun don't kill people, people kill people. I just think it makes it easier. But, banning the right to carry one, and sending them into the black market will just make it worse. I think it's easier for people to get a gun. I can call about 3 people on my cell, and get a unregistered gun.

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