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^_^truth · 09-18-2006, 04:45 AM

To respond to the experiment with the simulated early earth enviroment and the creation of life through non-living bases. If I remember correctly, it was preformed a number of times, first giving rudimentary RNA sequences (though if I remeber correctly, mostly imcomplete sequences), and after continuning trials; amino acids and basic carbon-chains (don't quote me on the carbon-chains I haven't read that one in any text, I have only heard of it by word of mouth) .

The thought goes that in a large electrical storm, with the right early earth conditions these amino acids would begin to form protiens and begin to interact with the the surrounding chemicals leading to a chain reaction.

The flaw, that I have yet to hear a good argument to deal with so far, was that if these basic stuctures of amino acids and nucleic acid sequences were to replicate themselves without changing due to the stresses of the enviroment at any given moment would be that the "building blocks" must be in a contained "bubble" that would be stable and prevent interaction with the outside world as the replication began to take place. In other words, I haven't heard a theory so far that deals with the development of membranes. But I am willing to bet there is one out there I just haven't heard yet.

Explicit · 09-19-2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ^_^truth

To respond to the experiment with the simulated early earth enviroment and the creation of life through non-living bases. If I remember correctly, it was preformed a number of times, first giving rudimentary RNA sequences (though if I remeber correctly, mostly imcomplete sequences), and after continuning trials; amino acids and basic carbon-chains (don't quote me on the carbon-chains I haven't read that one in any text, I have only heard of it by word of mouth) .

The thought goes that in a large electrical storm, with the right early earth conditions these amino acids would begin to form protiens and begin to interact with the the surrounding chemicals leading to a chain reaction.

The flaw, that I have yet to hear a good argument to deal with so far, was that if these basic stuctures of amino acids and nucleic acid sequences were to replicate themselves without changing due to the stresses of the enviroment at any given moment would be that the "building blocks" must be in a contained "bubble" that would be stable and prevent interaction with the outside world as the replication began to take place. In other words, I haven't heard a theory so far that deals with the development of membranes. But I am willing to bet there is one out there I just haven't heard yet.

Speaking purely off of the point you raised in the end of your post and without prior research in to this myself either I would say to you; would it necessarily be detrimental to the process if these building blocks of life were exposed to more influences from the environment while reproducing thus causing other changes, possibly to the benefit or death of that piece of life that formed?

Given that this stage of the Earth's life that they estimate this may have taken place in was plenty lengthy, it's fair to say this could have taken place countless times. Many shots fading away possibly, until one finally takes hold by having that one trait (???) that enables it to move forward in the process. Who knows? Now I'm just thinking out loud.

What do you think?

t-1000 · 09-19-2006, 10:18 PM

creation seems more likely to me... but who knows? just follow the golden rule and youll be set either way.

All this religion study is a waste of time.

oh, and if jesus sends me to hell because I don't believe in him, he is one sick bastard! If he expects me to believe in him or go to hell, the least he could do is show is face at least once while im alive.

^_^truth · 09-20-2006, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Explict :
Speaking purely off of the point you raised in the end of your post and without prior research in to this myself either I would say to you; would it necessarily be detrimental to the process if these building blocks of life were exposed to more influences from the environment while reproducing thus causing other changes, possibly to the benefit or death of that piece of life that formed?

Given that this stage of the Earth's life that they estimate this may have taken place in was plenty lengthy, it's fair to say this could have taken place countless times. Many shots fading away possibly, until one finally takes hold by having that one trait (???) that enables it to move forward in the process. Who knows? Now I'm just thinking out loud.

That is a feasible possiblity as far as I see it (I am a physics guy not so much a biology guy...so much of what I am saying is speculation and a few previous readings that may have been changed by my memory or have already changed since the last time I read them). Whats funny though is this interest in this particular experiment has its own subject of research for biochemists, called, let me make sure I get this right, evolutionary biochemisty, which is the study of the development of the conditions for a "primordial soup" and what actions needed to take place to cause the evolutionary changes within the "soup's" early signs of the potential for life.

Overall cool stuff, I would suggest checking it out.

And still there is no evidence of divine intervention. So does creationism stand up...well if you compermise and state that perhaps god started this whole mess with the big bang. Thats always been a good compermise: God is what happens at t=-0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000009.

twister · 09-20-2006, 03:22 PM

I'm a Christian by faith,but a heathen in lifestyle.Though I do believe in creation,I'm not exactly a bible-pounding preacher bent on saving the world.That being said (hopefully avoiding the inevitable flaming) I have a couple of which-came-first-questions;

1.Mucus or cilia?Or did they evolve simultaneously?Was the evolution of these just lucky happenstance or did the organism know that it needed these beforehand?

2.The heart or the blood veins/vessels?If the first heart to beat wasn't successful I would assume that the organism died,that is unless it didn't need the heart to begin with.If it died,how did it pass on the genetics needed for it's offspring to devolope a heart?If the heart came first what did it pump?If blood evolved first,why didn't it congeal?

3.The brain or the nervous system?How did it know it needed a brain?Likewise,how did it know to connect the nervous system to the brain?

4.Dna or Rna?

5.The skeletal system or muscular system,which holds the skelatal system together?

If these are questions that science has yet to answer,doesn't it take an extraodinary leap of faith to say that evolution exists and God doesn't?Uh-Oh,did I use the F-word?

On a totally unrelated topic,please support Marc Emery.As an American,I am dismayed and pissed-off about this whole sorry affair. Marc Emery Extradition Fund
Hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting the link.I read Cheaptalk FAQ before posting to make sure.

^_^truth · 09-20-2006, 11:40 PM

Twister, those questions are exactly the types of questions that evolutionary biochemistry (and biologist interested in early evolutionary processes) are very interested in. I can't answer them, because frankly, I don't have the knowledge needed to address them; however, I bet if you go to your local university's website and go to the biology or biochemistry department sections you could post those questions to a professor or researcher in those fields and that will, from my experance, be more than happy to respond with whatever they can.

And no these questions don't need to be answered to deny God, but no one is trying to say that its one way or the other, we are just saying that the language of science shouldn't be subject to the language of religion and it's traditions. Yes, religion has its place and purpose, for better or worse, but that place is giving an outlet for people to express there faith.

The world would be a scary place for alot of people if they didn't believe there was someone over their shoulder helping them along.

And then of course there are some people that can handle the world as it is, and know: hey its scary and messed up, but I am going to work my way through this based on my own skills.

These two differences in philosphy are just the tip of the iceburg on this topic I bet.

But I digress, if you want the answers or the current conclusions that scientific research has been able to muster email a researcher at a local university or college.

--------------

As for the RNA/DNA question, yeah that one is a hot topic for a few evolutionary biochemists, and at the moment the conclusions lead to RNA first and for a good long time after before the swap to DNA. (just saw that in my old bio notes when I was sorting paper work today)

twister · 09-29-2006, 02:34 AM

Truth,I appreciate your response.You seem like an intelligent person and I appreciate your lack of belief-bashing that is so prevalent in our society these days.It gives me hope that believers and infidels can co-exist before the end.

Seriously though,I wanted to comment on the point you made about people needing to feel that someone (God)is helping them along.Keep in mind that I'm not a student of philosophy.I feel a need to point out to you that religion is far more than that.In fact,I believe that He DOES NOT have a hand in the day to day lives of ordinary people.To keep it short,He stated a plan for the world and only intercedes when necessary to keep things moving as planed.He doesn't "call someone home" as people are so fond of saying at funerals here in the south.He doesn't cause someone to win the lottery because they have had a life of misery and need a break.
Even though I'm considered a sinner and doomed to hell according to my own beliefs,I can say from personal experience that religion isn't a crutch.In most southern homes we are bottle fed the stories of the bible and as we age the teaching gets more philisophical.
You have to know that these bible stories aren't just something found in a book but something that was passed down orally since the beggining of mankind.As the dead sea scrolls are being restored we are coming to the realization that,at least for a couple of thousand years the wording of the bible has only been changed by a few words.Mostly conjunctions such as and,or and other non-significant words.That in itself is incredible and should make even an athiest pause and think.
I know you you meant no harm,I don't take it personally when someone thinks we use our faith as a crutch because I can see the world from both points of view.I'm sure there are many millions of folks out there that use their faith to make them feel better about impending death,but there are many of us that can just know without a doubt that our faith will be justified in the end.
Take it easy

^_^truth · 10-03-2006, 05:52 AM

Pretty much this subject has been beaten to the point where I don't think anyone will post anymore; however, I did want to address one last point that was brought up (even though it is slightly off topic):

Quote:

Posted by Twister: I can say from personal experience that religion isn't a crutch

I want to address this, because I hadn't intended it to come off as "religion is a crutch" because for many people it isn't. It's a means of answering the "why question." Everyone has their own approach to this question; and I respect that. I don't necessarily agree with formal religion (take a look at my post history to figure that one out...hell sometime I am so frusturated I just rant), but as the sang goes: different strokes for different folks.

-----------------

Back to a relevant point, however, is this issue of "why questions." See and this is the part where anti-darwinism gets it wrong. Evolution is a fact (and I use that term in the sense that it is a given assumption, just like a mathematical axiom is for the mathematical sciences), that discusses the "How" process of getting from species a to species b. Religion's (chirstian religion in this case) place is in addressing the "Why" question. The "how" was placed in genesis as the result of culminating many other tradtions which has moved to the metaphycial notion for religion instead of the theological (metaphysics= "Rain drops are caused by angel's tears" and things of that nature...its the combination of theological studies with common natural observations to make sense of the world).

So honestly, this concern of religion arguing about evolution is kind of a miss direction of religion, at least in my humble opinion. Religion should be focused on allowing people to have a means of expressing their desire to have faith in something.

And I am going to end it with that.

silverspork · 01-15-2007, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erickdan

Did you know that every state has laws that state that school books should contain only factual information?

Looking at a year 2000 science book, and I quote, "Evolution is fact, not a theory" Soudns like a mantra, keep telling yourself that long enough and you'll believe it I guess.

Other lies that have been disproven but are still taught as fact:

-Colorado River made the Grand Canyon. Couldnt be, if you look at the layers they run uphill. What river runs uphill?

-Pangea. Did you know that all pictures of teh pangea affect cut off 40% of Africa and don't show central america at all. This is the only way to make this theory work.

-Fossils and Layers. Go to a museum and ask them how they date there fossils and bones. THey will tell you that they date them by the rock layers they were found in. Ask them how they date the rock layer...they'll tell you they date them by the Fossils found in them. This is circular reasoning for those who have never thought this through. If they told you they used carbon dating for fossils they are lieing flat out.

-Carbon dating. This was never possible until the "geological cloumn" theory. This column, if it Did exist, would be 100 miles thick! Impossible.

-They say trilobites are 500-600 million year olds in teh text books and use them as key fossils. But they have found trilobite fossils in the same fossils as a man's footprint. Hmmmm

-The peppered moths theory. Did you know the picture of them moths in your textbooks is actually a bunch of dead moths placed on those trees to lie to you?

-Why are petrified trees found standing up and connecting several layers of rock? How can the rock be different ages? Some are even found upside down! Evolutionist can not explain this expcet for a Great Flood.

-Did you know Darwin's only degree was in Theology? He was no scientist.
Evolution has 6 definitions/types. I DO believe in one of them. Macro-evolution. Macro-evolution is the variation of types w/in kinds. Micro-evolution is the vary of types of kinds.
Variations do happen but are Limited. Evolutionist believe in no limits.

-For evolution to truly exist you would need an increase in genetic information. But genetic information is LOST not ADDED. Beneficial mutations do NOT exist.

It's time for a New Theory folks. Sorry to burst your bubbles.

The Bible states that end time scoffers will be willingly ignorant of the truth.
The schools are teaching Lies. You blindly follow. MY religion may not be able to be proven either, but At Least it cannot be disproven. Find the Truth.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

what do you guys believe. Big Bang? the earth is 40 billion years old?

if so, who made energy? who made matter?

- not 1 star ahs ever been proven to be created.

-look at the world's population trends. there were 1 billion people in 1810AD, and there are 6 billion today. there were 1/4 billion in 30 AD. If you look at that growth curve it shows that the human population began about 4,400 years ago. (wierd that's what Bible says too!)
-Scientists say man has been around for 3 million years. If this was true according to the growth curve there would be 150,000 people per square inch today.

-Scientists observe a supernova/nova approximately every 30 yrs. They can only find 300 supernova rings in the Heavens. How old does that make the universe?

-Jupiter's moon Ganamede still has strong magnetic field indicating hot molten core. Even atheists admit that it should have cooled billions years ago. Hmmm

-Saturn's rings are unstable, cant possibly be that old.

- Moon getting few inches farther from earth each year. According to this fact earth can ONLY be 1.2 million years old.

-And comet's prove that the earth cannot be more that 10,000 years old

----------------------------

See: Vitamin B17 Apricot Seeds Kernels Laetrile Amygdalin
why has a good cure for cancer been hidden from us?

"Money is the root of ALL evil"

-drug companies dont make money when we are well. They treat symptons not the problems. I believe most any illness could be treated if we actually got the 80 vitamins and minerals and 3 oils that our bodies need each day.

The Bible says we were given all green things and the bread which strengthens our heart. Well nowadays bread is not good for your heart. What's up with that? Well I did some looking and found that about 200 years ago bread companies were tired of there bread going bad after a day or two. They found that 3 oils in the bread were causing the problem. I forget the names, one was omega something. anyways, they removed these three oils which did wonders for the heart in order to make more money. The Bible says stuff about our daily bread, and back then you had to make your bread daily....hmmmm

-Schools textbooks are teaching that coal took 250 million years to form, yet a brass bell, and a gold chain have been found inside undisturbed pieces of coal

-during the gold rush, miners found hammers and mortar & pestles under the undisterbed rock of the mountains that were supposed to be 55 million years old

-the smithsonian among other museums have publicly admitted that they covered up evidence that was against evolution. Other museum's employees ahve been Fired for revealing such evidence. HMMMM...So if you go against the theory/religion of evolution then your fired?? Can't have that now can we. This is science?

I think not, think for yourselves!

You have so many things backwards it isn't even funny.

The earth is 4.5 billion years old, not 40.......

How do comets prove the earth isn't older than 10,000 years? A large majority of meteorites that impact the earth have olivines like forsterite and fayalite. These minerals are sometimes dated to be as old as 2 billion years old. Sorry, I don't follow what you're saying at all.

The colorado river formed the grand canyon. I don't know if you know this or not, but when sediment is deposited it's deposited in a horizontal fashion, and then overtime these layers can dip one way or the other.

"They say trilobites are 500-600 million year olds in teh text books and use them as key fossils. But they have found trilobite fossils in the same fossils as a man's footprint. Hmmmm"

Can you show me some solid proof of this? Trilobites have been extinct since the last mass exinction at the end of the permian.

"Saturn's rings are unstable, cant possibly be that old." Actually they are stable, they are kept in place by small objects called "shepard moons". Where the hell did you hear this?

09-18-2006, 04:45 AM	#61
^_^truth Sr. Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 429 Grams: 2,696.50 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	To respond to the experiment with the simulated early earth enviroment and the creation of life through non-living bases. If I remember correctly, it was preformed a number of times, first giving rudimentary RNA sequences (though if I remeber correctly, mostly imcomplete sequences), and after continuning trials; amino acids and basic carbon-chains (don't quote me on the carbon-chains I haven't read that one in any text, I have only heard of it by word of mouth) . The thought goes that in a large electrical storm, with the right early earth conditions these amino acids would begin to form protiens and begin to interact with the the surrounding chemicals leading to a chain reaction. The flaw, that I have yet to hear a good argument to deal with so far, was that if these basic stuctures of amino acids and nucleic acid sequences were to replicate themselves without changing due to the stresses of the enviroment at any given moment would be that the "building blocks" must be in a contained "bubble" that would be stable and prevent interaction with the outside world as the replication began to take place. In other words, I haven't heard a theory so far that deals with the development of membranes. But I am willing to bet there is one out there I just haven't heard yet. __________________ Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. Nietzsche

09-29-2006, 02:34 AM	#67
twister New Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 37 Grams: 981.05 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Truth,I appreciate your response.You seem like an intelligent person and I appreciate your lack of belief-bashing that is so prevalent in our society these days.It gives me hope that believers and infidels can co-exist before the end. Seriously though,I wanted to comment on the point you made about people needing to feel that someone (God)is helping them along.Keep in mind that I'm not a student of philosophy.I feel a need to point out to you that religion is far more than that.In fact,I believe that He DOES NOT have a hand in the day to day lives of ordinary people.To keep it short,He stated a plan for the world and only intercedes when necessary to keep things moving as planed.He doesn't "call someone home" as people are so fond of saying at funerals here in the south.He doesn't cause someone to win the lottery because they have had a life of misery and need a break. Even though I'm considered a sinner and doomed to hell according to my own beliefs,I can say from personal experience that religion isn't a crutch.In most southern homes we are bottle fed the stories of the bible and as we age the teaching gets more philisophical. You have to know that these bible stories aren't just something found in a book but something that was passed down orally since the beggining of mankind.As the dead sea scrolls are being restored we are coming to the realization that,at least for a couple of thousand years the wording of the bible has only been changed by a few words.Mostly conjunctions such as and,or and other non-significant words.That in itself is incredible and should make even an athiest pause and think. I know you you meant no harm,I don't take it personally when someone thinks we use our faith as a crutch because I can see the world from both points of view.I'm sure there are many millions of folks out there that use their faith to make them feel better about impending death,but there are many of us that can just know without a doubt that our faith will be justified in the end. Take it easy __________________ If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything.

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09-19-2006, 10:18 PM	#63
t-1000 Sr. Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 765 Grams: 4,504.76 Groans: 2 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post Thanks: 39 Thanked 68 Times in 45 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	creation seems more likely to me... but who knows? just follow the golden rule and youll be set either way. All this religion study is a waste of time. oh, and if jesus sends me to hell because I don't believe in him, he is one sick bastard! If he expects me to believe in him or go to hell, the least he could do is show is face at least once while im alive.

09-20-2006, 03:22 PM	#65
twister New Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 37 Grams: 981.05 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I'm a Christian by faith,but a heathen in lifestyle.Though I do believe in creation,I'm not exactly a bible-pounding preacher bent on saving the world.That being said (hopefully avoiding the inevitable flaming) I have a couple of which-came-first-questions; 1.Mucus or cilia?Or did they evolve simultaneously?Was the evolution of these just lucky happenstance or did the organism know that it needed these beforehand? 2.The heart or the blood veins/vessels?If the first heart to beat wasn't successful I would assume that the organism died,that is unless it didn't need the heart to begin with.If it died,how did it pass on the genetics needed for it's offspring to devolope a heart?If the heart came first what did it pump?If blood evolved first,why didn't it congeal? 3.The brain or the nervous system?How did it know it needed a brain?Likewise,how did it know to connect the nervous system to the brain? 4.Dna or Rna? 5.The skeletal system or muscular system,which holds the skelatal system together? If these are questions that science has yet to answer,doesn't it take an extraodinary leap of faith to say that evolution exists and God doesn't?Uh-Oh,did I use the F-word? On a totally unrelated topic,please support Marc Emery.As an American,I am dismayed and pissed-off about this whole sorry affair. Marc Emery Extradition Fund Hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting the link.I read Cheaptalk FAQ before posting to make sure.

09-20-2006, 11:40 PM	#66
^_^truth Sr. Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 429 Grams: 2,696.50 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Twister, those questions are exactly the types of questions that evolutionary biochemistry (and biologist interested in early evolutionary processes) are very interested in. I can't answer them, because frankly, I don't have the knowledge needed to address them; however, I bet if you go to your local university's website and go to the biology or biochemistry department sections you could post those questions to a professor or researcher in those fields and that will, from my experance, be more than happy to respond with whatever they can. And no these questions don't need to be answered to deny God, but no one is trying to say that its one way or the other, we are just saying that the language of science shouldn't be subject to the language of religion and it's traditions. Yes, religion has its place and purpose, for better or worse, but that place is giving an outlet for people to express there faith. The world would be a scary place for alot of people if they didn't believe there was someone over their shoulder helping them along. And then of course there are some people that can handle the world as it is, and know: hey its scary and messed up, but I am going to work my way through this based on my own skills. These two differences in philosphy are just the tip of the iceburg on this topic I bet. But I digress, if you want the answers or the current conclusions that scientific research has been able to muster email a researcher at a local university or college. -------------- As for the RNA/DNA question, yeah that one is a hot topic for a few evolutionary biochemists, and at the moment the conclusions lead to RNA first and for a good long time after before the swap to DNA. (just saw that in my old bio notes when I was sorting paper work today)

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