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Higher Logic

I think you took my response out of context, HH. When I said, you can not prove to me there is a God, just like you cannot prove to me there isn't a God, I didn't mean because you can't prove to me there isn't one that it must be true and there is one.

You have some seriously skewed views on religion, granted they are your views, they are skewed when it boils down to it all. No one knows why we have religion, there are hundreds of theories in fact. No one knows where we come from either, not even science has answered that question with 100% faith in their theories.

I'm not religious, HH. I was raised Christian actually, but when I started studying religion, and actually understood the historical, political, and economical reasons for religion, then things started to make more sense.

I understand why we have religion, and what purpose it serves, but I can't understand where it comes from.

You keep referring to the Christian religion, when you do realize there are over 10,000 other religions you need to examine. I suggest you at least read some theories on religion, try Tyler our Weber out for size, some Emile Durkheim might be good too; by all means don't read anything by Norbeck though, not really fond of his theory. Freud also has some interesting ideas, but my point is there's many other things to consider. You're looking at this from one viewpoint and one viewpoint only. You're taking the Bible literally, also, when ever someone brings up a verse. Ever think about the reason why that verse was written, or what the social implications were?

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Hiz Highness

Blah, blah, blah. What was the purpose of all this?

What does any of this have to do with me locking horns with someone displaying a fundamentalist attitude?

That's amazing, two paragraphs ago you said:

So no one understands why we have religion . . . except you? Alrighty then.

I challenge you to name 10,000 religions that you've studied. Or just 10,000 religions for that matter.

I appreciate the offer to study religion, but there seems to be an assumption that I haven't. That assumption would be wrong. I've studied religion, I grew up in a religious household, I've belonged to five denominations of christianity, studied Arab/Islamic history, grew up closely with Jewish friends, studied buddhism, practiced meditation, read the Tibetan book of the dead, read the New Testament twice, Old Testament once, attended numerous pagan gatherings and rituals, on and on with my credentials I could go . . . so what?

I didn't enter this thread asking why people have religions. I came in here taking exception to some lamb of Jesus's flock smugly telling us all that his beliefs were fact and we were all gonna find that out one day.

-HH

Stephanie S.

Um, he said he understands why, not the he knows why.
And out of curiosity, since when did blah blah blah amount to intelligent discussion?

peace

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"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." —George W. Bush, Greece, N.Y., May 24, 2005 (Listen to audio)

Hiz Highness

Synonyms of "know":
acknowledge, apprehend, comprehend, discern, distinguish, experience, fathom, identify, perceive, place, recognise, recognize, undergo, understand


Since people started using 23 words to describe my views as skewed:

C'mon now, ya'll can do it in fewer words than that.

-HH

Stephanie S.

OK, its a semantics game now. Well, I know that the sky is blue but I don't understand the science that explains it. I know that people choose Christianity, but I don't understand their thinking with regard to the Messiah. See?

In Higher Logics case, really, knowing and understanding are not synonymous.

peace

edit: screwed up my own post

 

Hiz Highness

No, it's just plain english.

Really?

Let's look at the actual example:

1) "No one knows why we have religion, there are hundreds of theories in fact."

2) "I understand why we have religion, and what purpose it serves, but I can't understand where it comes from."

In Example #1 it is clearly stated that no one knows why we have religion. In #2 it is stated that HL knows why, he just doesn't know the origin of religion.

It's plainly contradictory. Both examples address the why of religion. Looks pretty straight forward to me.

By the way:
. . . so you got to learn two things from this thread. Not a bad deal.

-HH

Stephanie S.

Great, I read that. I learned it in GPS in college, I know it, but I still don't understand it.

Now, as for why we have religion.

"We need organized religion for the same reason we need organized political parties, or any organized social movement. Whether it be to attain national independence, elect a particular candidate, or in the case of Judaism, perfect the world through monotheism, people with similar values and goals must organize themselves in order to have an effect upon the world.

Why, then, if we recognize the need for organization in so many areas of social concern, does it seem illogical or undesirable to many people that there be organization in religion?

The answer lies in understanding that most people have religion, organized or not. They regard religion as an institution that regulates prayer and other rituals, and which demands certain beliefs about G-d. Consequently, many individuals feel that religion is or should be a “private affair,” and that organized religion is unnecessary since private affairs need not be organized.

It may very well be that the religion to which many have been exposed consists of little more than prayer, ritual, and belief, and in such cases we agree that organized religion is largely organized irrelevance. But this type of religion has little in common with Judaism. Judaism is concerned with organizing people to better the world. It is an all-encompassing value- and action-shaping way of life whose goal is the creation of a moral and holy nation which in turn morally improves the world, and whose means are the laws (mitzvot) of Judaism." ~ From 9 Questions People Ask About Judaism, Prager & Telushkin.

That I both know and understand. Now what are the two things I learned in this thread?

peace

Higher Logic

I have read this entire thread, yet again, to figure out what exactly is being argued. Not only am I stumped on that one, I can’t figure out what “Hiz Highness” is trying to argue, or lack thereof. So, allow me to put my thoughts out on the screen, and maybe some sense will come of this.

“I have nothing against people who believe in a supreme creative power. I believe in the concept of god myself.”

So this argument isn’t about people who believe in a higher power, but people who are fanatics, or fanatical in such a way that they try to force their views on you and everyone else.

“I'm just not so desperate to make everyone believe what I do [and to] tell people where they're going to go.”

However, you have no problem telling people that they shouldn’t fervently believe in something that you yourself do not.

“I'd appreciate it if we sentenced people who think science and religion are somehow on equal footing to a mandatory college education.”

I believe both of them serve their purpose, do you think I should have a mandatory college education? Oh, wait…I’ve already had one of those.

“I came in here taking exception to some lamb of Jesus’ flock smugly telling us all that his beliefs were fact and we were all going to find that out one day.”

So if you understand that some people are going to be fanatical about something like religion, then why do you let it get to you? I said it earlier, and I’ll say it again: you cannot prove there is a God; you cannot prove there isn’t one. I’m not saying since you can’t prove there isn’t a God, that there is one, I’m saying there’s three sides to every story and at least consider them.

“I challenge you to name 10,000 religions that you've studied.”

I never said anything about studying religion. In your “study list”, you never mentioned anything that tells me you have “studied” religion. Knowing about Christianity or Judaism isn’t studying religion; I’m talking about theories of religion, psychology, anthropology, archaeology, history, politics, etc. That aspect of religion is much different, and perhaps it will show you a different insight. I already mentioned some people you should read up on—Durkheim, Tyler, Freud, Weber, Frazer, Geertz, etc.—and highly recommend them.

I’ve studied religion as well, and that includes theories of origins of religion, magic, prehistoric religion, Totemism, animism, native American religion, Hinduism, native/non-native African religion, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Taoism, Confucianism, divination, Shinto, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Baha’i, mythology, taboo, rites of passage, drugs and religion, medicine and healing in religion, witchcraft, sorcery, ghosts and souls, oral religion (such as the Yanamano), Voodoo, and global religion-culture. I too was raised religious, have been to many different churches and denominations, have and do practice meditation, and have countless hours of coursework under my belt regarding religion. Do I know any more than the next guy? No, but it does help with “understanding” why certain things are the way they are. It explains to me “why” people aren’t allowed to work on the Sabbath, instead of calling out their God. Religion and culture often go hand and hand, and many of the taboos and laws that you consider “weird” or “instilled by a fear-mongering God” are actually just laws of man that have been intertwined with religion but really have nothing to do with it (such as not killing a cow, which has nothing to do with religion, but has other reasons behind it).

Also, if you want to get more topic-oriented, read “The True Believer” by a guy named Eric Hoffer. He talks about fanatical movements, which isn’t limited to religion, and can include politics, nationalism, and social movements. You cannot say all fanatics and fundamentalists are religious, for they are not and it is ignorant to say so.

Hiz Highness

Yep. If someone feels free to tell others that they're going to hell for not believing god correctly I'm perfectly comfortable calling them a religious whacko. It's a shame more people aren't comfortable attacking close-kinded fundamentalism.

Somehow I doubt you had a mandatory one. I also didn't say anything about believing they 'serve a purpose', I said
if you believe they're on equal footing.

Because religious fundamentalism is a dangerous thing. Why don't you let it get to you?

That's why I gave you the option of just naming 10,000 religions whether you had studied them or not. Still waiting on that.

I don't know if I cannot say that. I know I did not say that.

-HH

plinko

I just want to reiterate a few points on my own behalf:

1. I am a Christian, nondenominational, I simply read the Bible and follow Christ's teachings.

2. I am not a religious 'fanatic,' zealot, or fundamentalist by general terms.

and

3. My beliefs are shared by all Christians, my statements are not special or different in anyway to other Christians. All of my bellefs come directly from the Bible.

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HL, you've stated that the text of the Bible is inspired only by societal and political happenings during the period. Can you elaborate on this theory?