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Higher Logic · 03-31-2006, 05:41 PM

Prayer Does Not Heal The Sick, Study Finds
31 March 2006 | Source

Praying for the health of strangers who have undergone heart surgery has no effect, according to the largest scientific study ever commissioned to calculate the healing power of prayer.

In fact, patients who know they are being prayed for suffer a noticeably higher rate of complications, according to the study, which monitored the recovery of 1,800 patients after heart bypass surgery in the US.

The findings of the decade-long study were due to be published in the American Heart Journal next week, but the journal published the report on its website yesterday as anticipation grew.

The power of intercessory prayer has been studied by doctors for years in America, but with no conclusive results. This $2.4 million study, funded in large part by the John Templeton Foundation, which seeks "insights at the boundary between theology and science", was intended to cast some clear light on the matter.

But the study "did not move us forward or backward" in understanding the effects of prayer, admitted Dr Charles Bethea, one of the co-authors and a cardiologist at the Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City. "Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect," he said.

Members of three congregations - St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Massachussetts; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City - were asked to pray for the patients, who were divided into three groups: those who would be told they were being prayed for, those who would receive prayers but not know, and those who would not be prayed for at all.

The worshippers starting praying for the patients the night before surgery and for the next two weeks, asking God to grant "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications".

The study found no appreciable difference between the health of those who did not know they were being prayed for and those who received no prayers. Fifty-two per cent of patients in both groups suffered complications after surgery. But 59 per cent of those who knew they were prayed for went on to develop complications.

The reports authors said they had no explanation for the difference beyond a possibility that the prayers made people anxious about their ability to recover.

"Did the patients think, ’I am so sick that they had to call in the prayer team?"’ said Dr Bethea.

The results of the study provoked discord among doctors and scientists in the US, many of whom questioned the wisdom of subjecting prayer to the conditions of a research project.

Dr Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and the author of a forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, told The New York Times: "The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion."

But Paul Kurtz, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the State University of New York at Buffalo, and chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, had a simpler response when asked why the study had found no evidence for the power of prayer. "Because there is none," he said. "That would be one answer."

Dr. David Stevens, executive director of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations, told the AP that he believed intercessory prayer could influence people's health, but that scientists were not equipped to measure the phenomenon.

"Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not. God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not," he said. As for the new study, he said, "I don’t think... it’s going to stop people praying for the sick."

Cassius · 03-31-2006, 05:57 PM

But... but.... my Bible says "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much"!!!

Niteshift · 03-31-2006, 06:08 PM

Using science to "measure" a matter of faith?

It just doesn't get much more arrogant than that. And the theological/philosophical answers as to why their little experiment showed what it showed could be debated. Perhaps they were destined to show this so that only the truly faithful would continue the practice.

I am not active in religion, but there was a time I was. I have PERSONALLY witnessed things that there is NO WAY those scientists could possibly explain with modern science. None.

So they can run all the study groups they want. The fact that they think they can "test" this like it was some study with rats chasing cheese through a maze shows that they have no clue about what true faith in a religion actually is.

Buzzby · 03-31-2006, 06:25 PM

Ahh! Perhaps the people doing the praying weren't adequately righteous? Would a truly righteous person tempt God by testing his powers?

Quote:

Fifty-two per cent of patients in both groups suffered complications after surgery. But 59 per cent of those who knew they were prayed for went on to develop complications.

God was obviously displeased...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Higher Logic

But Paul Kurtz, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the State University of New York at Buffalo, and chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, had a simpler response when asked why the study had found no evidence for the power of prayer. "Because there is none," he said. "That would be one answer."

Toking Jedi · 03-31-2006, 06:51 PM

They could have divided them into four groups: prayer, prayer and telling, no prayer, and no prayer but telling the patients (placebo effect). Though, of course, I guess telling patients they were prayed for would have the same effect whether or not they actually were prayed for.

I'm surprised, though. Wouldn't people who were told they were being prayed for feel happy that someone cared? I would think that it would have a positive effect psychologically. Oh well.

03-31-2006, 08:49 PM

In Judaism we have a prayer called the Mi Shebarakh ... a prayer said on behalf of the ill or the recovering...

http://www.jewishhealing.org/downloa...iSheberakh.doc

Mi Sheberakh: May the One Who Blessed...

May the One who blessed our ancestors --
Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,
Matriarchs Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah --
bless and heal the one who is ill:
(person's name)________________ son/daughter of (their mother's name) ________________ .

May the Holy Blessed One
overflow with compassion upon him/her,
to restore him/her,
to heal him/her,
to strengthen him/her,
to enliven him/her.

The One will send him/her, speedily,
a complete healing --
healing of the soul and healing of the body --
along with all the ill,
among the people of Israel and all humankind,
soon,
speedily,
without delay,
and let us all say: Amen!

(the transliteration o fthe hebrew is as follows, male/female gender

Mi Sheberakh
Avoteinu: Avraham, Yitzhak, v'Yaakov,
v'Imoteinu: Sarah, Rivka, Rachel v'Leah,
Hu yivarekh virapei
et haholeh/haholah _____________ ben/bat ______________

HaKadosh Barukh Hu
yimalei rahamim alav/aleha,
l'hahalimo/l'hahlimah,
u-l'rap'oto/u-l'rap'otah,
l'hahaziko/l'hazikah,
u-l'hay-oto/u-l'hay-otah.

V'yishlah lo/lah bim-hera
r'fuah shlemah,
r'fu-at hanefesh u-r'fu-at hagoof,
b'tokh sh'ar holei Yisrael v’holei yoshvei tevel,
hashta ba'agalah u-vizman kariv,
v'no-mar, Amen!

~~~ It can't hurt, it might help ...and perhaps a little chicken soup?

**goodgirl** · 04-01-2006, 11:44 AM

I think it is ridiculous to try to gauge the effect of prayer through scientific research. Did they research how the ones doing the praying felt? Prayer isn't only for the patient. Of course these were a bunch of strangers to the patients but most of the time prayer is done by loved ones or the loved ones community.

At a time when you are watching a loved one become sick and there is nothing you can do about it I would think that praying for them would help them to get through their own fears. Asking for the prayers of their community is reaching out to a support group that otherwise may not be available to them. I don't understand why it matters what some scientific research says.

Saying "I will pray for you" means "I will be thinking about you and wishing you well. You are not alone as long as there are people that will pray for you." It can be very beneficial to someone heading into surgery to know that there are people that are hoping and praying that he recovers. Whether it has an effect on their physical recovery is a moot point. If they feel cared for then it can only be a good thing.

Of course having a group of strangers pray for you just isn't the same thing. Did they only get patients that fervently believe in the power of prayer? Did they ask them if they felt comforted or did they only look on a medical chart to determine the benefits?

Now I do not believe in those religions that swear off medical treatment in favor of just praying but that wasn't what this study was about. After all, if this was to prove that medical treatment is still necessary than they would have had a group that only received prayer and no treatment. No, instead they tried to scientifically prove that it was a waste of time to pray for a loved ones and that any comfort they felt in it was a false comfort.

It really pisses me off that something that does absolutely no harm could be studied to this extent. I mean, what is the point other than a group of scientists was bored for a new project and needed some grant money to roll in? I understand skeptics about religion, I am one of them (despite believing in God) but I don't waste valuable time and resources to try to prove that someone else's belief are wrong. Why bother? As long as they aren't sacrificing virgins and they feel comforted by it then leave it alone.

smoking joe · 04-01-2006, 02:37 PM

Prayer just doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny. It would be a very easy test. Have 2 groups of sick people. Do not treat either group. Have an isolated group of people pray for one group of sick people and not for the other. Do you really think that in such a test that there would be any different mortality rate?

**dedbr** · 04-01-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Dr Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and the author of a forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, told The New York Times: "The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion."

This statement pretty much does the article in. Science and religion have no place together. They are not the same areas of study.

Smoking Joe....

Quote:

Prayer just doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny.

Why should it?

Ded

smoking joe · 04-01-2006, 07:47 PM

Religion is based on "blind faith". A leftover from our prehistoric forefathers. Due to their high level of ignorance, they needed something to explain things they didn't understand.....moon god, sun god, Thors hammer making lightning,etc etc. Thousands of years have passed and we are down to one god, for the most part (never mind the Hindus) and there are still people who take a literal understanding of the Bible or Koran. Science isn't perfect either but where the two differ is that science does change when facts indicate that a previous held idea is wrong. Religion is unable to change thus locking it in a cycle of ignorance. But that is okay as "ignorance is bliss".

03-31-2006, 05:41 PM	#1
Higher Logic Web Developer Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,123 Grams: 5,802.63 Groans: 3 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 2 Thanked 58 Times in 33 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Prayer Does Not Heal The Sick Prayer Does Not Heal The Sick, Study Finds 31 March 2006 \| Source Praying for the health of strangers who have undergone heart surgery has no effect, according to the largest scientific study ever commissioned to calculate the healing power of prayer. In fact, patients who know they are being prayed for suffer a noticeably higher rate of complications, according to the study, which monitored the recovery of 1,800 patients after heart bypass surgery in the US. The findings of the decade-long study were due to be published in the American Heart Journal next week, but the journal published the report on its website yesterday as anticipation grew. The power of intercessory prayer has been studied by doctors for years in America, but with no conclusive results. This $2.4 million study, funded in large part by the John Templeton Foundation, which seeks "insights at the boundary between theology and science", was intended to cast some clear light on the matter. But the study "did not move us forward or backward" in understanding the effects of prayer, admitted Dr Charles Bethea, one of the co-authors and a cardiologist at the Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City. "Intercessory prayer under our restricted format had a neutral effect," he said. Members of three congregations - St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Massachussetts; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City - were asked to pray for the patients, who were divided into three groups: those who would be told they were being prayed for, those who would receive prayers but not know, and those who would not be prayed for at all. The worshippers starting praying for the patients the night before surgery and for the next two weeks, asking God to grant "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications". The study found no appreciable difference between the health of those who did not know they were being prayed for and those who received no prayers. Fifty-two per cent of patients in both groups suffered complications after surgery. But 59 per cent of those who knew they were prayed for went on to develop complications. The reports authors said they had no explanation for the difference beyond a possibility that the prayers made people anxious about their ability to recover. "Did the patients think, ’I am so sick that they had to call in the prayer team?"’ said Dr Bethea. The results of the study provoked discord among doctors and scientists in the US, many of whom questioned the wisdom of subjecting prayer to the conditions of a research project. Dr Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and the author of a forthcoming book, Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine, told The New York Times: "The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion." But Paul Kurtz, Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at the State University of New York at Buffalo, and chairman of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal, had a simpler response when asked why the study had found no evidence for the power of prayer. "Because there is none," he said. "That would be one answer." Dr. David Stevens, executive director of the Christian Medical and Dental Associations, told the AP that he believed intercessory prayer could influence people's health, but that scientists were not equipped to measure the phenomenon. "Do we control God through prayer? Theologians would say absolutely not. God decides sometimes to intervene, and sometimes not," he said. As for the new study, he said, "I don’t think... it’s going to stop people praying for the sick."

03-31-2006, 05:57 PM	#2
Cassius Seasoned Activist Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,161 Grams: 2,597.40 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	But... but.... my Bible says "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much"!!! __________________ { Cassius, Your Humble Narrator } { Posting Guidelines \| Erowid Drug Information Resource \| instantfilehosting.com }

03-31-2006, 06:08 PM	#3
Niteshift L.E.O. in Good Standing Join Date: Dec 2000 Posts: 6,432 Grams: 2,665.77 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Using science to "measure" a matter of faith? It just doesn't get much more arrogant than that. And the theological/philosophical answers as to why their little experiment showed what it showed could be debated. Perhaps they were destined to show this so that only the truly faithful would continue the practice. I am not active in religion, but there was a time I was. I have PERSONALLY witnessed things that there is NO WAY those scientists could possibly explain with modern science. None. So they can run all the study groups they want. The fact that they think they can "test" this like it was some study with rats chasing cheese through a maze shows that they have no clue about what true faith in a religion actually is. __________________ A burning desire for social justice is never a substitute for knowing what you're talking about. -Thomas Sowell Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is muzzle flash.

03-31-2006, 06:51 PM	#5
Toking Jedi Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 300 Grams: 2,116.22 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	They could have divided them into four groups: prayer, prayer and telling, no prayer, and no prayer but telling the patients (placebo effect). Though, of course, I guess telling patients they were prayed for would have the same effect whether or not they actually were prayed for. I'm surprised, though. Wouldn't people who were told they were being prayed for feel happy that someone cared? I would think that it would have a positive effect psychologically. Oh well. __________________ "The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood." - Dr. Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. Barack the Vote in '08 = Erowid = Reclaim Democracy

04-01-2006, 11:44 AM	#7
goodgirl Incognito Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 1,427 Grams: 7,892.37 Groans: 0 Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts Thanks: 1,066 Thanked 1,682 Times in 461 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	This ticks me off I think it is ridiculous to try to gauge the effect of prayer through scientific research. Did they research how the ones doing the praying felt? Prayer isn't only for the patient. Of course these were a bunch of strangers to the patients but most of the time prayer is done by loved ones or the loved ones community. At a time when you are watching a loved one become sick and there is nothing you can do about it I would think that praying for them would help them to get through their own fears. Asking for the prayers of their community is reaching out to a support group that otherwise may not be available to them. I don't understand why it matters what some scientific research says. Saying "I will pray for you" means "I will be thinking about you and wishing you well. You are not alone as long as there are people that will pray for you." It can be very beneficial to someone heading into surgery to know that there are people that are hoping and praying that he recovers. Whether it has an effect on their physical recovery is a moot point. If they feel cared for then it can only be a good thing. Of course having a group of strangers pray for you just isn't the same thing. Did they only get patients that fervently believe in the power of prayer? Did they ask them if they felt comforted or did they only look on a medical chart to determine the benefits? Now I do not believe in those religions that swear off medical treatment in favor of just praying but that wasn't what this study was about. After all, if this was to prove that medical treatment is still necessary than they would have had a group that only received prayer and no treatment. No, instead they tried to scientifically prove that it was a waste of time to pray for a loved ones and that any comfort they felt in it was a false comfort. It really pisses me off that something that does absolutely no harm could be studied to this extent. I mean, what is the point other than a group of scientists was bored for a new project and needed some grant money to roll in? I understand skeptics about religion, I am one of them (despite believing in God) but I don't waste valuable time and resources to try to prove that someone else's belief are wrong. Why bother? As long as they aren't sacrificing virgins and they feel comforted by it then leave it alone. __________________ "Sometimes being a bitch is all you have to hold onto." ~Dolores Claiborne

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03-31-2006, 08:49 PM	#6
Mamabudz Posts: n/a Grams: 0 [Check] Stock Portfolio Total Value: Gain/Loss: %	In Judaism we have a prayer called the Mi Shebarakh ... a prayer said on behalf of the ill or the recovering... http://www.jewishhealing.org/downloa...iSheberakh.doc Mi Sheberakh: May the One Who Blessed... May the One who blessed our ancestors -- Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Matriarchs Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah -- bless and heal the one who is ill: (person's name)________________ son/daughter of (their mother's name) ________________ . May the Holy Blessed One overflow with compassion upon him/her, to restore him/her, to heal him/her, to strengthen him/her, to enliven him/her. The One will send him/her, speedily, a complete healing -- healing of the soul and healing of the body -- along with all the ill, among the people of Israel and all humankind, soon, speedily, without delay, and let us all say: Amen! (the transliteration o fthe hebrew is as follows, male/female gender Mi Sheberakh Avoteinu: Avraham, Yitzhak, v'Yaakov, v'Imoteinu: Sarah, Rivka, Rachel v'Leah, Hu yivarekh virapei et haholeh/haholah _____________ ben/bat ______________ HaKadosh Barukh Hu yimalei rahamim alav/aleha, l'hahalimo/l'hahlimah, u-l'rap'oto/u-l'rap'otah, l'hahaziko/l'hazikah, u-l'hay-oto/u-l'hay-otah. V'yishlah lo/lah bim-hera r'fuah shlemah, r'fu-at hanefesh u-r'fu-at hagoof, b'tokh sh'ar holei Yisrael v’holei yoshvei tevel, hashta ba'agalah u-vizman kariv, v'no-mar, Amen! ~~~ It can't hurt, it might help ...and perhaps a little chicken soup?

04-01-2006, 02:37 PM	#8
smoking joe Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 36 Grams: 25.80 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Prayer just doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny. It would be a very easy test. Have 2 groups of sick people. Do not treat either group. Have an isolated group of people pray for one group of sick people and not for the other. Do you really think that in such a test that there would be any different mortality rate?

04-01-2006, 07:47 PM	#10
smoking joe Banned Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 36 Grams: 25.80 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Religion is based on "blind faith". A leftover from our prehistoric forefathers. Due to their high level of ignorance, they needed something to explain things they didn't understand.....moon god, sun god, Thors hammer making lightning,etc etc. Thousands of years have passed and we are down to one god, for the most part (never mind the Hindus) and there are still people who take a literal understanding of the Bible or Koran. Science isn't perfect either but where the two differ is that science does change when facts indicate that a previous held idea is wrong. Religion is unable to change thus locking it in a cycle of ignorance. But that is okay as "ignorance is bliss".

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