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**goodgirl** · 04-10-2006, 04:26 AM

What is it that makes you so passionate about atheism that you find it necessary to post in a forum about religion? I can understand not believing in God, but what makes your disbelief so strong that you feel the need to taunt and belittle those that do believe?

I have seen claims that it is for the joy of debating. If however you want to debate you need an opposing viewpoint. If you start off by ridiculing everyone that disagrees with you to the point that they avoid the forum altogether, what kind of a debate is that? That is not a debate, it is either just the joy of a flame war or the joy of having your brilliance declared by those that already agree with you. So if it's not for the debate then what is it for?

I have seen expressed the idea that it is because religion is harmful, that it causes people to fight wars or bomb abortion clinics. Of course I have also seen it expressed that marijuana smoking causes street violence, helps to fund those that bombed the World Trade Center and will hurt our children. So it can't be because of the actions of a few that you are condemning the whole...so what other reason could there be?

Some atheists claim that they don't believe in God because even if he does exist he is obviously a jerk (paraphrasing of course). So which is it? Do you not believe in God, or are you just mad at him? Are you punishing God by not believing as some that claim to be atheists have been known to do? Or do you think that he is just a fairy tale? It can't be both.

Do you just enjoy showing off your knowledge about all kinds of studies and scientific research? Of course, it is possible to do that without belittling those that don't agree with you, so that can't be it.

I have seen it argued that those that are offended by having their beliefs ridiculed should grow a thicker skin because it is like debating politics. Yet, those that do believe in God are forced to reveal something private about their own beliefs to even begin the discussion while the atheists can sit back behind the shield of a textbook and smirk.

When I was an atheist I would try to avoid discussion on religion unless someone else tried to shove it down my throat. I wouldn't have gone out of my way to enter discussions on religion, so help me to understand...why do you?

I can understand not believing in God, what I don't understand is this form of atheism that seems to be almost as passionate in it's beliefs, as unrelenting in it's opinion that they are the only right ones, and so completely "in your face" about their opinions that I almost feel as if there is an attempt to convert me. What does the fanatic atheist hope to accomplish by adopting some of the least desirable aspects of many of the religions they openly mock?

What makes you tick? Please tell me, because I honestly don't get it. I have never thought of atheism as a religion until now.

PotShot · 04-10-2006, 06:01 AM

I favor the atheist viewpoint because it assumes much less than a theist viewpoint. I am in favor of believing in things that are true about reality; I am obsessed with reality to the point of fanaticism. A reality zealot.

I see much evidence that, if anything destroys us, it will be religious beliefs such as, "If I bomb [fill in the blank] I will go to [paradise of choosing]! These beliefs are NOT based on reality. Theistic thought is always there to slow down progress and cause much human suffering.

My comments on god being a monster is strickly speaking in the sense of the christian idea of god. First thing is first, if there is an intelligent creator of the universe, how could anyone claim to know it's persona? The christians would say that god is omniscient, as well as omnipotent. If it created the cosmos, and knows everything about the cosmos, then it designed every event that happens in that cosmos.

This includes each choice a person makes, and the basic fact that mankind is not "perfect" as god views perfection, i.e. lack of sin.

Why is god so allergic to sin? Why did it create sin?

So many questions, it seems much simpler to believe in reality, and not blow shit up.

I think that religious thought, and faith in general can do some good. I have faith in reality, and faith in the notion that we are smart enough to understand why we are smart; reverse engineer our brains and improve on our own consciousness through the use of nanotechnology.

I view reality as having solutions to the whole "ending of consciousness" problem us conscious beings have had since we were consciousness. Flawed views about reality do nothing but impede this progress.

WNB · 04-10-2006, 06:12 AM

Atheists post in religion forums for the same reason as religious people. They also sometimes ridicule other's beliefs for the same reasons as religious people (namely, some individuals are immature).

Also, before you complain about atheists cramming beliefs down your throat, you should probably think about how regularly religious people cram beliefs down other's throats compared to how often atheists do it. I know on my college campus, we get evangelicals preaching all the time (usually with threats of hellfire and a torrent of verbal abuse), protesting outside Planned Parenthood and screaming at passersby, etc. I've never seen atheists doing the equivalent, though, of screaming at people trying to go to class or picketing a church. If anything, the few times atheists do go on the offensive should serve as a reminder to religious people what the irritation they cause the rest of us regularly feels like.

Also, as a parting thought, try to understand that the basic premise of atheism is offensive to religion. Our basic view is that there is no god and your entire belief system is based around a fiction. It's hard to soften that up -- any time that view is expressed, no matter how politely, at least some religious people will feel insulted.

PS: My personal belief is that there is no way to know if god exists or what he wants, so religion amounts to speculation at best. Further, I think religion is attractive to many who aren't comfortable with an ambiguous answer to life's deepest questions (why are we here, what's the meaning of life, etc). It's an easy solution that is intellectually comforting but not based on reality.

PPS: I bet stating my beliefs just offended you, too. And just think, I haven't even gotten to the part about how if you need to follow a specific belief system to please god, provided he exists god isn't worth pleasing anyway.

slangking · 04-10-2006, 06:21 AM

I like philosophy. That's why I study it. Critical analyis of commonplace beliefs is a good thing. The existence of God is a member of the set of commonplace beliefs. I don't think atheists (like myself) are "fanatics" about our beliefs; what is it about careful logical analysis that is fanatical?

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I have seen expressed the idea that it is because religion is harmful, that it causes people to fight wars or bomb abortion clinics.

I take it you're referring to a comment I left in the "Does God exist?" thread. You are not being very charitable to what I actually said. I did not say that religion is ALWAYS and NECESSARILY harmful. But to say that it doesn't cause people to fight wars, bomb abortion clinics, fly planes into buildings and the like is just INSANE. You never have heard of an atheist that shoots and OB/GYN in her home for performing abortions.

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Some atheists claim that they don't believe in God because even if he does exist he is obviously a jerk (paraphrasing of course). So which is it? Do you not believe in God, or are you just mad at him? Are you punishing God by not believing as some that claim to be atheists have been known to do? Or do you think that he is just a fairy tale? It can't be both.

I don't believe in God. The evil in the world is so repugnant to me that I cannot believe that, if a supreme being existed in created the world as a maximally good agent, then there would be evil. There's nothing to be mad at, on my interpretation. I have no bone to pick with a (nonexistent) God.

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I have seen claims that it is for the joy of debating. If however you want to debate you need an opposing viewpoint. If you start off by ridiculing everyone that disagrees with you to the point that they avoid the forum altogether, what kind of a debate is that? That is not a debate, it is either just the joy of a flame war or the joy of having your brilliance declared by those that already agree with you. So if it's not for the debate then what is it for?

There has not been a single ad hominem attack in any thread related to these issues. People are questioning your beliefs, NOT attacking your character. If you interpret these sorts of arguments under the latter sense, then you should not be so insecure with yourself and with your faith.

Higher Logic · 04-10-2006, 07:32 AM

Here's the best way I can think of to answer your question:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

**dedbr** · 04-10-2006, 08:56 AM

for a couple of reasons. The first is that I have found a friend in Goodgirl, so I like to respond to her, and the second is to share two things that have been said to me in the last few weeks.

The first is a friend told me the other day that for an atheist I was the most spiritual person that he has ever met. This gave me pause because I don't see myself as such, but I suppose that if I was to have the chance to sit down with myself and have a conversation, perhaps I would get to see a side of myself that others see, too.

Second was the other day when Higher Logic said he knew that I believed in the Bible. This really threw me because I wasn't aware that I came across that way, but maybe that was my spiritual side coming out, or maybe he was getting a taste of the guy that believes in jolly old Saint Nick.

Yes G, I was told many times in my youth to avoid at all costs debates about politics and religion. Why? Because there are no solid answers I was told. And also, most people were very passionate about their faith in either one.

With age I have mellowed, I suppose. I no longer need to be absolutely right all the time in a debate. It's pointless. Just as long as I am OK with myself it's all good.

Believe what you want to believe, just be nice about it, huh? Goodgirl's right.
Atheist's, for the most part, seem angry that no one listens to them, and Gods children do, too.

Present good points, talk to each other, reason with each other. Stick a smilie

or two in there to ease the tone without killing the message.

Remember, Jesus might want you for a sunbeam.

Somewhere in Ded land...In search of the Lost Gospels....

Higher Logic · 04-10-2006, 10:22 AM

Well since the subject came up about being insulted, ridiculed, hated, offended, etc., I wanted to bring up two articles about the recent study done by the University of Minnesota. The first is the actual study:

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A new study by the University of Minnesota Department of Sociology has found that Americans perceive Atheists as the group least likely to embrace common values and a shared vision of society.

Worse yet, Atheists are identified as the cohort other Americans do not want to see their offspring marrying!

These are just some of the result from a forthcoming article slated for publication in the American Sociological Review by Penny Edgell, Joseph Gerties and Douglas Hartmann. The research is part of the American Mosaic Project which monitors attitudes of the population in respect to minority groups. AANEWS obtained an advanced copy of the study that was based on a telephone survey of more than 2,000 households.

Researchers concluded: "Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in 'sharing their vision of American society.' Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry."

HL: Awww. My feelings are so hurt. See, I guess that's the difference about atheists, they don't have to put up a protective barrier to shield themselves from their doubt and fear about what atheists seem to have none of: god.

Disturbingly, Atheists are "seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public," despite being only 3% of the U.S. population according to Dr. Edgell, associate sociology professor and the lead researcher in the project.

HL: My point exactly. If the Bible is not the word of god, then the case for Christianity and all of its agendas, political and social, fall apart. The religious tend to build a protective invisible barrier to shield thmselves from questions from those that don't believe. They are like everyone else, in that they are always doubting their own beliefs, they cling to them in the hope that it migh be true, but they still live in fear that they may be wrong too. When other people, I mean athiests, question their beliefs it heightens this fear. To make themselves feel better they either "walk away" from religious discussion, offering up some excuse about how personal or senstive it is, in the hope of silencing their critics. This allows them to continue on with their hope that their faith offers them.

Edgell said that Atheists "play the role that Catholics, Jews and communists have played in the past" in that we provide "a symbolic moral boundary to membership in American society."

In addition, says the study, "The reaction to atheists has long been used as an index of political and social tolerance."

The U. of M. team acknowledged that general levels of tolerance and acceptance have been on the rise. Indeed, they cited studies like the Gallup polling organization that indicated growing willingness by voters to support Catholic, Jewish, Gay and other candidates identified with groups once considered out of the mainstream. Atheists, however, linger at the very bottom of this list, although there has been limited progress in this category since the mid-to-late 1950s.

Statistically, the picture is much the same regarding the perception of Atheists sharing a common vision with the rest of the American polity. When asked to identify the group that "does not at all agree with my vision of American society," 39.6% of respondents listed Atheists, well ahead of Muslims (26.3%); Homosexuals (22.6%); and Jews (7.6%). Conservative Christians drew a negative response from 13.5% of those surveyed, slightly ahead of recent immigrants at 12.5%.

Other results found by the researchers illuminated the status of Atheists in respect to various groups.

"Church attenders, conservative Protestants, and those reporting high religious saliency are less likely to approve of intermarriage with an atheist and more likely to say that atheists do not share their vision of American society..." In respect to the former, the survey presented respondents with the following statement: "I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group."

Once again, Atheists were at the apex of this negative-image cohort at 47.6%, followed by Muslims (33.5%); African Americans (27.2%); Asian Americans (18.5%); Hispanics (18.5%); Jews (11.8%); conservative Christians (6.9%) and Whites at 2.3%.

HL: Alright, I know the following is probably going to piss some people off, but I can't help bringing this up.

"Attitudes toward atheists are related to social location," observed the team. "White Americans, males, and those with a college degree are somewhat more accepting of atheists than are nonwhite Americans, females, or those with less formal education."

HL: Who would have figured? Wait though, it gets better, especially if you recall our last discussion on this.

Respondents from the South and Midwest were less accepting of Atheists than those living on either coast. Curiously, this seems to reflect the political divide of "Red versus Blue" states from the last presidential election.

HL: Wait, who were all those people that voted for Bush again? This actually makes a lot of sense, maybe religion really is a sign of intelligence, or lack thereof in thise case. And don't get your panties in a bunch over this, lighten up a bit.

Researchers also tried to discover any correlations between negative attitudes toward Atheists and similar views of homosexuals and Muslims. "None of these correlations is large," reported the researchers. "We believe this indicates that the boundary being draw vis-a-vis atheists is symbolic, a way of defining cultural membership in American life, and not the result of a simple irrational unwillingness to tolerate small out-groups."

A significant finding of the new study is that despite growing acceptance and tolerance of different groups within the religious community, Atheists are viewed as outsiders, "others," who do not share a common community vision. "What matters for public acceptance of atheists—and figures strongly into private acceptance as well—are beliefs about the appropriate relationship between church and state and about religion's role in underpinning society's moral order, as measured by our item on whether society's standards of right and wrong should be based on God's laws." The study found that conservative Protestants especially rejected the "possibility of a secular basis for a good society." This, more than anything else, may be the driving factor placing Atheists outside the cultural mainstream in the minds of nearly a majority of Americans.

HL: It's a good thing that Protestants are declining in numbers the fastest.

The University of Minnesota study drew upon other research measuring the prevalence of explicit Atheism and nonbelief throughout American society. Fully 14% of Americans claim "no religious identity," and 7% told the General Social Survey that they do not believe in a God or are not sure.

"Respondents had various interpretations of what atheists are like and what the label means," investigators found in discussions following the initial interviews. Perceptions fell into two categories.

"Some people view atheists as problematic because they associate them with illegality, such as drug use and prostitution—that is, with immoral people who threaten respectable community from the lower end of the social hierarchy." Presumably, this might be rooted in the claim that only religion can provide an authentic moral compass, and that without a deity (and the presumed punishment in an afterlife), people have little to lose by engaging in certain immoral, sinful behaviors.

HL: Now wait a minute, if only 3% of Americans are atheist, then that means a majority of people in jail, excuse me, the immoral people, are actually religious! And the Bible actually offers no moral guidelines, the ten commandments are almost givens. But that's another thread.

"Others saw atheists as rampant materialists and cultural elitists that threaten common values from above—the ostentatiously wealthy who make a lifestyle out of consumption or the cultural elites who think they know better than everyone else." In both cases, atheists are perceived as "self interested individuals who are not concerned with a common good."

HL: Quite the opposite from the atheists that I know. Now read the following closely though, I said we'd come back to this because of how it related to the last discussion.

The issue of elitism surfaces in the study findings, with respondents using the Atheist "as a symbolic figure to represent their fears about ... trends in American life." These included crime, rampant self-interest, and an "unaccountable elite."

HL: Nothing new though, the "wicked" and "foolish" have been picked on for as long as religion has been around. Maybe that's why they don't get offended about things though.

"The atheist is invoked rhetorically to discuss the links, or tensions, among religion, morality, civic responsibility and patriotism."

HL: Alright, now here comes the good part.

As for elitism, Atheists appear to have replaced groups that in the past have been identified as constituting an over-influential clique subverting American values.

The researchers note that in the public imagination, Atheists are linked "with a kind of unaccountable elitism," a phenomenon that has purportedly surfaced in public debates. Indeed, Charlotte Allen, author of the 2004 book "The Twilight of Atheism," expressed fears that Atheism "may yet be experiencing a new dawn: a terrifying new alliance of money and power, of a kind even Marx could not have foreseen."

HL: It's like deja vu!

The debate over Atheists on the issue of religion in civil society has been fueled by the terrorist attacks of 9/11. The Minnesota team devoted a section of their report to quotes from leading officials such as former Attorney General John Ashcroft, who in public statements invoked religion as a guarantor of freedom and human dignity. The 2004 presidential campaign witnessed similar rhetoric.

The study underscored the role of Atheists as "symbolic" of angst permeating American culture. "Negative views about atheists are strong," noted the researchers, although "survey respondents were not, on the whole, referring to actual atheists they had encountered." Instead, the Atheist is a sort of boundary marker distinguishing members of a wider policy from "others," outsiders, those not sharing assumptions about morality and the role of religion. Religion is widely perceived as providing "habits of the heart," and a disposition which includes one in membership within a larger community. Americans "construct the atheist as the symbolic representation of one who rejects the basis for moral solidarity and cultural membership in American society altogether."

Other groups have suffered a similar fate over the year, including "Catholics, Jews, and Communists." Today, say the researchers, the Atheist plays this role.

There may be a crucial difference, however. "Our analysis shows that attitudes about atheists have not followed the same historical pattern as that for previously marginalized religious groups. It is possible that the increasing tolerance for religious diversity may have heightened awareness of religion itself as the basis for solidarity in American life and sharpened the boundary between believers and nonbelievers in our collective imagination."

Finally, in all of this, there is a flicker of hope for Atheists. The Minnesota survey references an earlier Gallup Organization poll measuring "Willingness to vote for Presidential candidates." Voter attitudes toward Catholics, Jews, African Americans, Atheists and Homosexuals were tabulated with displayed results from 1958 through 1999. Gallup conducted the survey as then-vice presidential candidate Joseph Lieberman was running on the Democratic Party ticket with Al Gore. Willingness to consider voting for a Jewish candidate had climbed from about 61% in 1958 to over 90% in 1999. There was similar progress for candidates of other religious or ethnic groups. Voters looked favorably on possible Mormon candidates (79%) as well as Roman Catholics and women.

Atheists were at the bottom of the cohort, however. Gallup research indicated that "close to half of Americans, 48%, (were) unwilling to support an atheist for president while 49% say they would."

HL: This is really interesting to me, especially when you look at the last election. Those numbers are extremely close to those that voted for Bush and those that didn't. Remember, Bush was all about religion, and while Kerry claims to be religious too, he didn't push it like Bush did.

The bad news may not be that bad, though. About 19% of respondents in 1958 expressed willingness to vote for a qualified Atheist candidate seeking public office. By 1978, that figure had climbed to 40%, rising approximately another 10% in the next 11 years. The only group making comparable dramatic headway in terms of public acceptance was African Americans. That cohort lingered below the 30% mark in 1958, but skyrocketed to over 90% in 1999.

American Atheists President Ellen Johnson said that while Atheists are the "others" in the current cultural and political milieu, the figures demonstrate the need for this segment to become more engaged. "We need to keep speaking out, organizing, running for public office," said Johnson. "Some might see this as an omen to retreat; it's really a call for action."

And the second is a personal account that talks about the study too:

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I first learned about the University of Minnesota survey identifying atheists as the most distrusted, untrustworthy, if not outright hated (you wouldn't want your sister marrying one), group in America through a perky little AOL newsletter entitled "News That Doesn't Hurt."

It's a good thing my feelings aren't easily injured, not that they're telling me anything I didn't already know. I once heard Bush's grudging admission that there was a remote possibility that someone who didn't believe in God, let alone his personal strict interpretation thereof, could actually possess morality, but he didn't look sincere.

HL: Yeah, Bush is soooo moral.

The title that initially caught my eye was, "Sucks to be Be Runner-Up: Atheists." It turns out that AOL, in response to the U of M poll and other important newsworthy events, had conducted their own poll to see who had the suckiest week in their "It sucks to be. . . " contest. Atheists came in second with 19%—poor Paula Abdul led with 57% of the vote. Hopefully Paula Abdul's not an atheist; that would make her numbers worse than the presidents. And besides other's hopes and dreams, exactly what—unless with her act—has she bombed lately?

While AOL did point out that "religion is fine. Hating those without one is not," and asked readers to ask themselves if "just about every war over the last say, 5,000 years has been sparked by religion in some way shape or form?" that still didn't make me feel any better.

HL: Oh so true though.

When I went to the U of M website to investigate further, I learned that the full results of the poll of 2000 phone calls will be published in April. The synopsis said that Atheists came in dead last in American values when compared to Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians. I rejoice on these group's behalf, even if, according to the poll, they don't trust or appreciate my fellow atheists and me for helping them out.

Accordingly, atheists are replacing Catholics, Jews and even Commies as the least American of citizens, if indeed we are considered citizens, our love of this nation's Constitution notwithstanding. But who cares about the Constitution? It's not like our pious President pays it any never mind. He's also been known to break a Commandment or two as well: lying and/or bearing false witness, coveting oil, killing, taking the name of God in vain, the attempted screwing of fathers and mothers in the name of Social Security, etc.

HL: Yup, had to bring it up again.

Coastal, Blue State, Better Educated, Multi-cultural loving, in other words, the stuck-up-intellectual snots among our nation were found to be slightly more tolerant than their "Midwestern counterparts."

My experience—yes and no. Although since I'm also ethnically Jewish, I admit there's always the double whammy effect at play. When meeting those hailing from the Red States, I've often had to explain that my life in New York isn't a non-stop Eyes Wide Shut orgy, shocking them with my tales of cookie baking, quilting, PTA (20 years retired) participation, and raising three children, none of whom have been in jail or summoned Satan. They never quite believe me.

One man from a little town in West Virginia bragged that he taught about me and my family in Sunday school, as in "I know a New York Jew whose daddy was a fireman." He's damn proud of knowing someone descended from a Jew who didn't just grub money and had a manly, altruistic job.

But even in New York City, the alleged Atheist, Jew and Immigrant Capital, people have not taken kindly to an atheist in their midst.

They've been bugging me since Kindergarten, when I refused to say the "Under God" in the pledge recently added by Eisenhower. Or when I raised my hand and protested my third grade teacher reading the 23rd Psalm, freely admitting she was going against the Supreme Court ruling.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. When I protested my son's sixth-grade graduation being full of quasi-religious songs (from cartoons such as Prince of Egypt, we're not talking Bible here) despite back-up from a lawyer/PTA mother, I was banned from an elementary school (at the age of 48). Worse, my children and I were attacked and reviled throughout the neighborhood by Christians and Jews alike. (Hindis and others agreed with me, but were afraid to speak up.) So much for America, land of freedom, let's import it to the world.

Jews refuse to accept my turning my back on the faith of my forefathers, but I honor a long line of atheists, starting with my Great Grandpa Sam. His wife, my beloved Great Grandmother Julia, told us of how she came to America to flee rabbis stunting her education and telling her whom to marry, to wear a wig, and to have more children than she wanted. People forget how when religious people are in charge, they become a real pain in the ass.

Those who play by religion's rules don't like having us Atheists around to remind them that there's always the ability to opt out, which takes a lot of the wind out of their being holy, along with the moral authority that lets them tell everyone else how to live.

HL: Another reason why I like to talk about religion, because it effects more than just the religious, it effects every aspect of my life. That answers one of your questions, GG.

One woman, a Born-Again Christian, begged me to allow her to tell my children about Jesus before their lack of religion led them to a life of crime. (According to the poll, atheists are considered most prone to moral indiscretions and criminal behavior.) I countered by offering to tell her children that there was no God, along with a crash course in comparative mythology. She declined.

Christmas Eve, 2004, her two sons committed a very public stabbing, killing one man and severely wounding another, then viciously kicked them both. Apparently they didn't like the way the victims looked at them in a movie theatre.

HL: I actually found this funny as hell, because the religious are always trying to tell people about their god, but if you ever try and ask a religious person if you can tell them about all the evidence and contradictions and everything else about religion they'll decline. I suppose it has something to do with the potent memeplex that is religion. Because remember, Christianity and most religions are unfalsifiable. That's one of the main reasons why "Intelligent" Design can't be taught as science, because you can't faslify it. You can with science though, that's why science advances and religion doesn't.

Far be it from me to accuse all religious people of being criminals; I like to think of myself as tolerant. I hope next time they conduct this poll they call me so I can prove it. I'm just saying that since the majority of people in this country are believers, the majority of the people in jail are, too. Along with the majority of people who go to strip clubs, commit adultery, drink, take drugs, gamble, and watch the immoral entertainment product provided by the so-called Jewish controlled media.

HL: Ah, she said it so much better than me! I think I cried a little.

They say there's no such thing as bad press, and I'm hoping that we atheists are no exception. Before we get around to hiring a press agent, I'm spending my time looking out the window for the guys with the torches coming to get the atheist, which I consider real progress. Back in the old days, it would have been because I was a Jew.

HL: Or a witch!

And now for some interesting quotes from some wise people, take note of the ones from our "founding fathers," who, as the Christians claim, were actually Christians. Just another way to rationalize their beliefs I suppose. Or just complete ignorance. Yeah, that sounds better...

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"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved—the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" —John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"There is nothing wrong with believing in a God. There is everything wrong in believing in a religion." —Anonymous

"It it weren't for Christians, I'd be a Christian." —Mahatma Ghandi

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." —Thomas Jefferson

"Religions are alike—founded upon fables and mythologies." —Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." —Thomas Jefferson

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible." —Thomas Jefferson

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." —James Madison

"Of all of the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny of religion is the worst." —Thomas Paine

"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines." —Bertrand Russell

"Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand-in-hand. It is because fear is at the basis of those two things. In this world we can now begin a little to understand things, and a little to master them by the help of science, which has forced its way step by step against the Christian religion, against the churches, and against the opposition of all the old precepts." —Bertrand Russell

Ok, I really like the following:

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"Religion is primarily a search for security and not a search for truth. Religion is what we so often use to bank the fires of our anxiety. That is why religion tends toward becoming excessive, neurotic, controlling and even evil. That is why a religious government is always a cruel government. People need to understand that questioning and doubting are healthy, human activities to be encouraged not to be feared. Certainly is a vice not a virtue. Insecurity is something to be grasped and treasured. A true and healthy religious system will encourage each of these activities. A sick and fearful religious system will seek to remove them." —John Shelby Spong

"Information is religion's greatest enemy, and in an age when information is just a few keyboard strokes away from anyone with a computer, this is going to pose a greater threat to Christianity than anything it has yet 'survived.'" —Farrell Till

"It is religion which has filled the hearts of men with fear of God, where once man loved that which is in all its splendor. It is religion which has ordered men to bow down before God where once man rose up in joyful outreach. It is religion which has burdened man with worries about God's wrath where once man sought God to lighten his burden. It is religion which told man to be ashamed of his body and its most natural functions where once man celebrated those functions as the greatest gifts of life." —Neal Donald Walsch

"Everywhere religion has gone it has created disunity." —Neal Donald Walsch

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion." —Steven Weinberg

PotShot · 04-10-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armand Salacrou

The existence of a world without God seems to me less absurd than the presence of a god, existing in all his perfection, creating an imperfect man in order to make him run the risk of Hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Dawkins

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.

And some Carl Sagan goodness:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Sagan

If we long to believe that the stars rise and set for us, that WE are the reason there is a Universe, does science do us a disservice in deflating our conceits?

In Italy, the Inquisition was condemning people to death until the end of the eighteenth century, and inquisitional torture was not abolished in the Catholic Church until 1816. The last bastion of support for the reality of witchcraft and the necessity of punishment has been the Christian churches.

If some good evidence for life after death were announced, I'd be eager to examine it; but it would have to be real scientific data, not mere anecdote... Better the hard truth, I say, than the comforting fantasy.

This one has a special place in my heart, and is kinda my mission statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Sagan

A religion old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science, might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tappped by the conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.

And another one from Dawkins, very close to the Stephen Roberts one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Dawkins

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.

And what is a party without Marquis de Sade?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marquis de Sade

The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind.

**goodgirl** · 04-10-2006, 01:37 PM

I had just written an entire post on this and with one swat of a baby hand my daughter wiped out what I had just spent over an hour writing. Maybe there isn't a God after all.

I will attempt to rewrite all of this later after I have spent a little time reminding myself that my daughter is a beautiful, wonderful, innocent little child and not an agent of Satan

Buzzby · 04-10-2006, 06:09 PM

The problem here, as I see it, is not whether or not God or gods exist. It's that some people, the ones I call "Fundamentalist Atheists", can't seem to allow others to have a peaceful discussion on religious matters.

Theists and Agnostics know that you don't believe in God, that you think people who do are deluded, and that religion is a terrible thing. We get it. We don't agree. We want to talk about religious matters. Why do you have to beat us over the head with your Atheism in discussions that are not about the existence of God? If people wanted to talk about the characters and plot of a story would you feel the necessity to tell them, over and over again, that "it's only a story"?

How does this differ from Fundamentalist Christians who pester you about your need to be saved and your impending damnation? Not leaving room for other people to have different beliefs is rude, immature, and small-minded. We harp on the need for diversity and respect for those who are different from ourselves but the Fundamentalist Atheists can't even allow for a diversity of thought and belief.

04-10-2006, 04:26 AM	#1
goodgirl Incognito Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 1,427 Grams: 7,548.07 Groans: 0 Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts Thanks: 1,066 Thanked 1,682 Times in 461 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Fanatic Atheists What is it that makes you so passionate about atheism that you find it necessary to post in a forum about religion? I can understand not believing in God, but what makes your disbelief so strong that you feel the need to taunt and belittle those that do believe? I have seen claims that it is for the joy of debating. If however you want to debate you need an opposing viewpoint. If you start off by ridiculing everyone that disagrees with you to the point that they avoid the forum altogether, what kind of a debate is that? That is not a debate, it is either just the joy of a flame war or the joy of having your brilliance declared by those that already agree with you. So if it's not for the debate then what is it for? I have seen expressed the idea that it is because religion is harmful, that it causes people to fight wars or bomb abortion clinics. Of course I have also seen it expressed that marijuana smoking causes street violence, helps to fund those that bombed the World Trade Center and will hurt our children. So it can't be because of the actions of a few that you are condemning the whole...so what other reason could there be? Some atheists claim that they don't believe in God because even if he does exist he is obviously a jerk (paraphrasing of course). So which is it? Do you not believe in God, or are you just mad at him? Are you punishing God by not believing as some that claim to be atheists have been known to do? Or do you think that he is just a fairy tale? It can't be both. Do you just enjoy showing off your knowledge about all kinds of studies and scientific research? Of course, it is possible to do that without belittling those that don't agree with you, so that can't be it. I have seen it argued that those that are offended by having their beliefs ridiculed should grow a thicker skin because it is like debating politics. Yet, those that do believe in God are forced to reveal something private about their own beliefs to even begin the discussion while the atheists can sit back behind the shield of a textbook and smirk. When I was an atheist I would try to avoid discussion on religion unless someone else tried to shove it down my throat. I wouldn't have gone out of my way to enter discussions on religion, so help me to understand...why do you? I can understand not believing in God, what I don't understand is this form of atheism that seems to be almost as passionate in it's beliefs, as unrelenting in it's opinion that they are the only right ones, and so completely "in your face" about their opinions that I almost feel as if there is an attempt to convert me. What does the fanatic atheist hope to accomplish by adopting some of the least desirable aspects of many of the religions they openly mock? What makes you tick? Please tell me, because I honestly don't get it. I have never thought of atheism as a religion until now. __________________ "Sometimes being a bitch is all you have to hold onto." ~Dolores Claiborne

04-10-2006, 06:01 AM	#2
PotShot Sr. Member Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 925 Grams: 2,865.37 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I favor the atheist viewpoint because it assumes much less than a theist viewpoint. I am in favor of believing in things that are true about reality; I am obsessed with reality to the point of fanaticism. A reality zealot. I see much evidence that, if anything destroys us, it will be religious beliefs such as, "If I bomb [fill in the blank] I will go to [paradise of choosing]! These beliefs are NOT based on reality. Theistic thought is always there to slow down progress and cause much human suffering. My comments on god being a monster is strickly speaking in the sense of the christian idea of god. First thing is first, if there is an intelligent creator of the universe, how could anyone claim to know it's persona? The christians would say that god is omniscient, as well as omnipotent. If it created the cosmos, and knows everything about the cosmos, then it designed every event that happens in that cosmos. This includes each choice a person makes, and the basic fact that mankind is not "perfect" as god views perfection, i.e. lack of sin. Why is god so allergic to sin? Why did it create sin? So many questions, it seems much simpler to believe in reality, and not blow shit up. I think that religious thought, and faith in general can do some good. I have faith in reality, and faith in the notion that we are smart enough to understand why we are smart; reverse engineer our brains and improve on our own consciousness through the use of nanotechnology. I view reality as having solutions to the whole "ending of consciousness" problem us conscious beings have had since we were consciousness. Flawed views about reality do nothing but impede this progress. __________________ Posting Guidelines Carl Sagan Goodness Richard Dawkins Goodness --------------------- THE SINGULARITY IS NEAR.

04-10-2006, 06:12 AM	#3
WNB Seasoned Activist Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 3,161 Grams: 2,617.05 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Atheists post in religion forums for the same reason as religious people. They also sometimes ridicule other's beliefs for the same reasons as religious people (namely, some individuals are immature). Also, before you complain about atheists cramming beliefs down your throat, you should probably think about how regularly religious people cram beliefs down other's throats compared to how often atheists do it. I know on my college campus, we get evangelicals preaching all the time (usually with threats of hellfire and a torrent of verbal abuse), protesting outside Planned Parenthood and screaming at passersby, etc. I've never seen atheists doing the equivalent, though, of screaming at people trying to go to class or picketing a church. If anything, the few times atheists do go on the offensive should serve as a reminder to religious people what the irritation they cause the rest of us regularly feels like. Also, as a parting thought, try to understand that the basic premise of atheism is offensive to religion. Our basic view is that there is no god and your entire belief system is based around a fiction. It's hard to soften that up -- any time that view is expressed, no matter how politely, at least some religious people will feel insulted. PS: My personal belief is that there is no way to know if god exists or what he wants, so religion amounts to speculation at best. Further, I think religion is attractive to many who aren't comfortable with an ambiguous answer to life's deepest questions (why are we here, what's the meaning of life, etc). It's an easy solution that is intellectually comforting but not based on reality. PPS: I bet stating my beliefs just offended you, too. And just think, I haven't even gotten to the part about how if you need to follow a specific belief system to please god, provided he exists god isn't worth pleasing anyway. __________________ War is Peace Freedom is Slavery Ignorance is Strength

04-10-2006, 07:32 AM	#5
Higher Logic Web Developer Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,123 Grams: 5,550.83 Groans: 3 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 2 Thanked 57 Times in 33 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Here's the best way I can think of to answer your question: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." __________________ Crucial Web Hosting · Garden's Cure · Marijuana Recipes · Drug Testing Facts Dilution · Substitution · Urine Testing · Hair Testing · Drug Testing FAQ

04-10-2006, 08:56 AM	#6
dedbr Always Faithful Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 6,921 Grams: 47,122.20 Groans: 11 Groaned at 22 Times in 15 Posts Thanks: 2,464 Thanked 2,279 Times in 1,027 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I am going to add to this thread ... for a couple of reasons. The first is that I have found a friend in Goodgirl, so I like to respond to her, and the second is to share two things that have been said to me in the last few weeks. The first is a friend told me the other day that for an atheist I was the most spiritual person that he has ever met. This gave me pause because I don't see myself as such, but I suppose that if I was to have the chance to sit down with myself and have a conversation, perhaps I would get to see a side of myself that others see, too. Second was the other day when Higher Logic said he knew that I believed in the Bible. This really threw me because I wasn't aware that I came across that way, but maybe that was my spiritual side coming out, or maybe he was getting a taste of the guy that believes in jolly old Saint Nick. Yes G, I was told many times in my youth to avoid at all costs debates about politics and religion. Why? Because there are no solid answers I was told. And also, most people were very passionate about their faith in either one. With age I have mellowed, I suppose. I no longer need to be absolutely right all the time in a debate. It's pointless. Just as long as I am OK with myself it's all good. Believe what you want to believe, just be nice about it, huh? Goodgirl's right. Atheist's, for the most part, seem angry that no one listens to them, and Gods children do, too. Present good points, talk to each other, reason with each other. Stick a smilie or two in there to ease the tone without killing the message. Remember, Jesus might want you for a sunbeam. Somewhere in Ded land...In search of the Lost Gospels.... __________________ Sometimes you can cut your own throat with your tongue..... So remember to check out our most wonderful Posting Guidelines!

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04-10-2006, 01:37 PM	#9
goodgirl Incognito Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 1,427 Grams: 7,548.07 Groans: 0 Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts Thanks: 1,066 Thanked 1,682 Times in 461 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	I had just written an entire post on this and with one swat of a baby hand my daughter wiped out what I had just spent over an hour writing. Maybe there isn't a God after all. I will attempt to rewrite all of this later after I have spent a little time reminding myself that my daughter is a beautiful, wonderful, innocent little child and not an agent of Satan

04-10-2006, 06:09 PM	#10
Buzzby Buddhist Curmudgeon Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 13,799 Grams: 37,983.62 Groans: 26 Groaned at 37 Times in 31 Posts Thanks: 452 Thanked 3,040 Times in 1,570 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	The problem here, as I see it, is not whether or not God or gods exist. It's that some people, the ones I call "Fundamentalist Atheists", can't seem to allow others to have a peaceful discussion on religious matters. Theists and Agnostics know that you don't believe in God, that you think people who do are deluded, and that religion is a terrible thing. We get it. We don't agree. We want to talk about religious matters. Why do you have to beat us over the head with your Atheism in discussions that are not about the existence of God? If people wanted to talk about the characters and plot of a story would you feel the necessity to tell them, over and over again, that "it's only a story"? How does this differ from Fundamentalist Christians who pester you about your need to be saved and your impending damnation? Not leaving room for other people to have different beliefs is rude, immature, and small-minded. We harp on the need for diversity and respect for those who are different from ourselves but the Fundamentalist Atheists can't even allow for a diversity of thought and belief. __________________ McCain voted with Bush 90% of the time. Do we really want four more years of the same old shit? ~ Buzzby, 08/31/2008 Theocracy Watch

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