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derisive

Some would say that religion (here meaning theistic religion in which God/gods are higher than humans) brings out the best in humanity, encouraging compassion, goodness, love, charity, selflessness, honor etc. I agree that it can do this, but I also think that humanity can bring out the best in humanity. One can reach the same moral conclusions (in a very broad sense) empirically, and I will if someone really wants me to.

Religion is the wrong way to go about getting these good things because one is doing it based on a belief (belief here meaning "stuff you can't prove/cite-the-proving-of logically"), and doing anything based on a belief is pretty much irrational. Once one has opened the door to doing things for no real (real here meaning "logically defensible") reason, it can all go bad really, really fast. Take fundamentalist Islam for example. Or fundamentalist Christianity. Or the Spanish Inquisition. The one commandment Jesus gives to his disciples is to love one another, yes? and then somehow somewhere in the chain of belief as opposed to logic, we got torture and murder. Not very loving.

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Lit_Match

Makes a good deal of sense but being able to logically defend your actions only goes so far. Lending someone a few bucks, helping an old lady across the street, things like these aren't logical but they are part of the way we live (some of us anyway).

Good post, still not sure what the unpopular idea is though.

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derisive

That theistic religion as described above is a bad, bad thing.

And helping others IS logical, if you assume what I assume. Bear with me. I think that helping others is a source of happiness for everyone, unless they're seriously damaged. I think that when we help others, we demonstrate a behavior that may be repeated if seen. The idea of helping the old lady may enter the mind of someone who's seen you help an old lady, and upon consideration, that someone may help the old lady they see. People tend to like and admire people who help others. In a college application, community service adds massive brownie points to any application. In a president, military service or other service (to a cause, to a people, to the starving children of wherever) is a pre-requesite. Our greatest heroes are those who help others, from MLK to Lincoln to Ghandi to Jesus. I think it follows then that those who are seen honestly helping others will be treated better in many situations by those who have seen them help. To explain this, I point to our tribal evolutionary origins. We aren't solitary hunters, we're communal animals, and helping others in the tribe is an evolutionarily advantageous development. If you depend on others and you help them and they save you, you just saved you by helping others.

Sorry for the long rant, I'll edit it when I'm less unbelievably stoned.

Edit:
Check out the first paragraph, it says the same thing (I think) in less words.

Lit_Match

I see what you mean, a social domino effect so to speak. It's almost karma-like, the movie "Pay it forward" also painted a similar portrait. Not that I'm saying it won't happen, but I would bet on people being lazy enough to justify their way out of doing anything constructive, it's just easier to do nothing. At best I would see it being a trend for a while, then we would go back to our usual way of living.

Sorry if I'm being detrimental, but by religion or without it, in practicality I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

1tokeovertheline

I don't see it happening. You have "givers" and you have "takers". It's hard to change either one. Givers don't like to take and takers don't like to give.

I have observed it in Christian and secular circles.

 

derisive

What about the whole "we're tribal animals" bit.

dedbr

To join together in a group or "tribe" is ingrained in us as a survival instinct. Large groups represent security to the weak.


Some Where In Ded Land.......

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-FROM JOHN F. KENNEDY'S INAUGURAL SPEECH, JANUARY 1961



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derisive

Security to anyone...

1tokeovertheline

That is correct Mr. Dedbr. That is why the turn schools, fire halls, etc. into shelters during ice storms and other "disasters". The weak need to huddle together for a sense of survival. Then they take from the givers.

Buzzby

Yes, we take care of our tribe. Those outside our tribe are fair game. We can kill them, enslave them, steal their goods and land, and rape their women. The current civil war in Iraq is an example of what comes out of tribalism.

Our closest relatives in the animal kingdom, the chimpanzees, have this "tribal morality". They take care of their own. They will kill and eat any chimp who is not part of their tribe.

Considering the whole human race to be part of your tribe is a stretch that the great majority of humans don't have the moral maturity to make. Most major religions make an attempt to convince people that "all men are brothers". Because of human nature they're not very successful.

The problem with your position is that it assumes that human beings are rational beings. We're not. If you look at history, humans are more ruled by emotion, cultural inheritance, and animal passion than they are by reason. We exclude people from our "tribe" because they possess the genes for a different skin color, because they speak a different language, because they have less money, because they worship the same gods in a different manner, or any of a dozen other trivial reasons.

Let's face it. Most of us are fucking monkeys and we need outside agencies to keep us from killing each other. Albeit with many exceptions, organized religion is one of those agencies.

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