bonghits4christ

this is a question to those of you Christian tokers out there. I was wondering how you interpret Romans 13 verses 1 through 3. Anyway, it says in the third verse that all governing powers are ordained by God. That doesn't seem right to me, because many governments like those in the middle east, kill Christians; for example, the armenian genocide going on as we speak. I read from a nkjv. Maybe I need the KJV to see what it says.

Panama

To the Spiritual Aspects forum.

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RIP JMorrison

Well thanks, that's another reason I don't really believe in God.

But I still keep an open mind about him.

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9-11-01

Daniel

13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God's appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God.

13:2 So the person who resists such authority2 resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will incur judgment

13:3 (for rulers cause no fear for good conduct but for bad). Do you desire not to fear authority? Do good and you will receive its commendation,

13:4 for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be in fear, for it does not bear the sword in vain. It is God's servant to administer retribution on the wrongdoer.

13:5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of the wrath of the authorities but also because of your conscience

SirSmokesAlot

Morrison is right. That is yet another example of a blatent contradiction in the bible. If its true that god ordains every government and ruler, then the damn pharoah that was holding the jews in bondage was appointed by god at the same time he was asking him to let the slaves go. Makes no sense whatsoever.

If you would like less contradictions and confusion in your life I would suggest exploring atheism, or at least a less hypocrytical religion...

Daniel

Sirsmokes:

This is not a contradiction. Yes, according to the book of Exodus, the Pharoah was the keeping the Hebrews as slaves.

God never asked Pharoah to let the people go. The people asked God to deliver them. Moses was chosen as the "spokesman" (with aaron, cause Moses wasn't as charasmatic as he appeared in the movies) of the Hebrews and not "God's spokesman".

Though the movie "The 10 Commandments" is not quite biblical, you may remember the line that goes (which is biblical) "God hardened the Pharoah's heart" and then all the plagues etc....

If you don't know anything about the bible, you would think that the Lord was screwing around with them. From a biblical point of view, God was building up the hebrew's character (If you want, I am willing to back that statement up biblically, not personally). Anyway, the point is that biblically, God was in control of this.



-Sidenote.... I am not talking about beliefs here personally, I am talking what the bible says.

Daniel

I know a Chemical dependency programs that utilzes the book of Exodus as a basis for defeating their addiction. The theme is based on showing how the people of Israel (as slaves) and Chemically Dependant people are similar in actions, psychologically, their denials etc. until they realize that wandering around in a desert for 40 years sucked. (freedom from addiction theme would be the arrival to the promised land).

SirSmokesAlot

Danial,

I was SEVERELY paraphrasing in that statement. It IS a contradiction, and I will show you why.

In Romans it is very clearly stated that every government and ruler was placed here by god, and that they are all respresenting god. (Romans 13:1-5) It even goes as far as to say this:

" Therefore whoever resists the authority (of the governing authorities) resists the ordinance of god "

AND we have these statements:

" I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their task-masters, for I know their sorrows " - Exodus 2:7

Ya mean the same taskmasters that are carrying out the "ordinance of god"??


" Now, therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel has come to Me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them " -Exodus 2:9

Those durn pesky Egyptians oppressing at god's appointment again... Personally, I would have thought that an all knowing god would have known exactly what the Egyptians were going to do, especially because they are carrying out his will!

" Come now, therefore, and I will send you to Pharoah that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt "

Let me get this straight god... You mean to tell me that you appointed this guy, he is ordained by you, and he is carrying out your will, but you are going to help some Israelites escape from him? Your 'chosen people' that you let become enslaved??? Not only that, but you, with your infinite wisdom, total power, and all knowingness, appointed a ruler who was carrying out your will, and instead of saying 'hmm, maybe I should tell my appointee who is carrying out my will to let my chosen people go from slavery' you make an enslaved man go do the dirty work for you!? OK, suure, riiiigggghhhttt....

{ And god said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ' I AM has sent me to you' " } Exodus 2:14

Mmmhummm... Sounds to me like god commanded Moses to do something... (something meaning go rescue his people from the oppressive ruler who was following god's will)

{ "Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, 'The lord god of your fathers, the god of Abraham, the god of Isaac, and the god of Jacob, appeared to me saying, "I have surely visited you and seen what is done to you in Egypt ; } Exodus 2:16

Mmmhummmm... Done to them by the rulers that were appointed by god, carrying out god's will. And since when does an all powerful, ever present, all knowing god have to go 'visit' Egypt to see what is going on there? Wouldnt he already know what the rulers he appointed who were carrying out his will were doing???

" For he (governing authorities) is god's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is gods minister, and avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil " - Romans 13:4

Ohhh so the Israelites are evil for even wanting to escape, because the Egyptians were just executing god's wrath! Those durn evil Israelites! So god wants to free his chosen people who are enslaved by rulers he appointed, rulers who are carrying out his will and executing his wrath on them? So god is freeing his chosen people and executing his wrath on them at the same time? Wow! Neato! Oh yeah, and durn those pesky oppressive ministers of god for carrying out his will!!!

So many contradictions just in this one little aspect of the bible, but I think I have provided enough. The bible is full of contradictions like these. If you want to believe that there is an all powerful god who at one point in time helped 'his people' escape from the very authorities that he appointed who were carrying out his will and keeping them as slaves, then go right ahead. I find it utterly hilarious that god does so much fighting with himself

(Yes I realize these arent necessarily your beliefs, the last statement wasnt necessarily targeted at you, but those who believe)

Daniel

First of all, Paul was writing the letter to the Romans at the time. (Remember, I am speaking biblical, not spiritual). I personally believe that Paul wrote this letter and don’t believe that he knew that we would be chatting about it 2000 years later. I think his perspective would be different. (I am of the camp that believes that for Christianity’s sake, the bible is a “Living document”, or it wouldn’t work)


Taking the Old Testament literally is a task that no person can really do. First, the books were not written in English. There are numerous translation problems, and over the years, the ways we use words change. If you were to take the King James Version of the Bible and compare it to most any versions, you would find striking differences. (Bibles that some Catholics use have books in them that most Christians have never even heard of, some verses have even been deleted. (Both new and old testaments)

Now… On to our Jews…

These folks were in slavery….I cannot imagine that conditions were the best. (Every kind of service the Israelites were required to give was rigorous). Was God in Control? Biblically, yes…

The beginning of Exodus talks about the Hebrew’s being slaves and the pharaoh wanted to kill all the male children (around Ex 1:15). The midwives refused the order, fearing God.
Exodus 1:20 So God treated the midwives well, and the people multiplied and became exceedingly strong.
(first case of pharaoh wanting to do something and God stepping in) The big point here was that God was aware, and already working on His people.
Were the taskmasters carrying out the “ordinance of God”?
Biblically, I would say yes.
Regardless of how God bailed the people out (delivery from slavery, feeding them Manna, water from the rock, parting of the red sea etc) the people still bitc*ed. Those that didn’t have faith died in the desert. (Only 2 of the originals made it to the “promised land”) Many wanted to come back to Egypt because they couldn’t stand having to depend on God.
My thoughts on this are that the whole slavery/pharaoh thing was a character building experience for them. Yes, God used pharaoh to deliver his people from the pharaoh in order to make them stronger.

QUOTE:
And god said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ' I AM has sent me to you' " } Exodus 2:14

Mmmhummm... Sounds to me like god commanded Moses to do something... (something meaning go rescue his people from the oppressive ruler who was following god's will)
UNQUOTE

Doesn’t sound like that to me. Sounds like He told Moses to go to his people. Moses was an instrument, he had no power.

QUOTE:
{ "Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, 'The lord god of your fathers, the god of Abraham, the god of Isaac, and the god of Jacob, appeared to me saying, "I have surely visited you and and seen what is done to you in Egypt ; } Exodus 2:16

Mmmhummmm... Done to them by the rulers that were appointed by god, carrying out god's will. And since when does an all powerful, ever present, all knowing god have to go 'visit' Egypt to see what is going on there? Wouldnt he already know what the rulers he appointed who were carrying out his will were doing???
UNQUOTE

As previously stated, Biblically, he knew.

QUOTE:
So many contradictions just in this one little aspect of the bible but I think I have provided enough.
UNQUOTE

I disagree. The world has been trying to prove/disprove the bible with arguments like this for 2000 years. Neither side has succeeded in convincing the other.

QUOTE:
The bible is full of contradictions like these.
UNQUOTE

I still think that this is not a contradiction.

QUOTE:
If you want to believe that there is an all powerful god who at one point in time helped 'his people' escape from the very authorities that he appointed who were carrying out his will and keeping them as slaves, then go right ahead.
UNQUOTE

And then there is the other camp that will not believe. I don’t have a problem with what people believe, I just dislike it when people look at these arguments from their own perspective. Meaning, if you want to try to disprove something in the bible, you will be able to do so. However, I would also guarantee that there are scholars smarter than all of the people reading this that would take any of your arguments on and tell you why you are wrong. (I cannot, I haven’t been to church in over a year) They have bet their soul (and they believe in that soul) that they are correct. To me, that speaks much.

Ummm... did any of this make sense?

SirSmokesAlot

You can think its not a contradiction all you want. You can also assume anything you want about this world, no sweat off my back. I am not trying to disprove the bible.

You have shown my point quite well. You keep asserting that god was in control, and according to the bible he was. Yet, at the same time, the bible tries to make it look like there are forces outside of god committing evil acts, which CANNOT exist if god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Those three key words mean god is present everywhere simultaneously, god is all powerful, and god knows everything.

Some conclusions from this:

If god is everywhere simultaneously, and evil exists, then all evil is god or an act of god.

If god is all knowing, then he knows everything that ever was or will be. This means that he allows every evil thing to happen. (see next)

If god is all powerful, and he does not stop evil, then he not only allows it to happen, but causes it to happen by not stopping it. (Since he is all powerful, knows everything, and is everywhere all at once, stopping it shouldnt be too much of a hassle)

Yet, throughout the bible they consistently make it seem as though the evil is coming from some other source. As if there was some wild-card trouble maker out there who cannot be controlled. It is ludicrous to even think that god even has to go through these 'battles with evil' knowing that he is all-powerfull, all-knowing, and ever-present. (which makes that evil a part of HIM!)

If you dont see how god fighting against evil, when he is everywhere simultaneously, has all the power, and knows everything , is a contradiction, then I dont know what is...