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SirSmokesAlot

I beg to differ with your rather arrogant post, Ganjx. I am an atheist and I am not empty inside. Then to back-handedly assert that people who dont believe in one of the thousands of gods that humans have invented over the millenia are ignorant, is downright silly. Do some research. Find out where "god" came from, how people started worshipping "him" or "it" and it will open your eyes.

Free your mind. Its a terrible thing to waste.

 

Rennoch

ganjax:

to beleive in nothing is to give form to the void which does not itself exist, to draw forth the concept of nothing from nothingness and bring it into being. this, if anything, makes beleiving in nothing a truly awsome thing to behold, and as such the humans that do this miraculous thing have been named: skeptics. for they doubt everything, even their own senses, and test all against the nothingness, to prove that everything is nothing in some form.

gods exist, they may make one more powerful, but they may also weaken and destroy someone, for despite your statement, they really do demand a commitment from you. and if you cannot abide by the commitment they ask, you can lose yourself to the god. that is where your zealots come from. with true faith, a strong mind, and will, your can survive having a god in which you beleive, as well as defining your existence through nothingness.

it is neither a weakness nor a strength for one to have beleive in a god. it is a choice. many people feel the spiritual need to learn and grow in that capacity. those you call atheists are merely another form of skeptic. they grow through examining the world as though nothing in or on it is granted. no conecpt belong to them, they explore each one as they encounter it, and decide to retain or discard it.

final note for ganjax: humans are different from animals. very different. we are the only creatures in existence to conciously repress our shadowmind. we withdraw from the beast within, and rather then conquring or embracing it and making it a part of us, thus controlling it, humans run from it, and hide behnd a multitude of rules and laws and guides. they fool themselves into beleive it is something other then what it is: human nature. though i admit the path of shafows is a long and difficult road, it is well worth the knowledge gained at the end, and as the motto of my order states: knowledge is Power

sirsmokesalot: shame on thee! thou who spoketh rightly in thy opened form, to deride thy opponent in the end spake unjustly of thy stance. for thou hast commited thy plank i thy brother's eye as crime, whilst ignoring the speck in thine. thou spoke of the arrogance of thy opponent, and then what thou didst in return? thou commanded
|"Find out where "god" came from, how people started worshipping "him" or "it" and it will open your eyes."|

when didst thou acheive status as infallible? didst thou earn thy saintly mannor along with st.chad? where didst thou acheive perfection? this humble soul indeed knows his poor self carries many such specks, indeed works dilligently to remove them, but alas, one is seeing an injustice done by hypocrisy, and sir smokesalot, thou hath commited a grave injustice. dost thou knoweth the path of this poor soul? dost thou knoweth the minds of all incarna since time? didst thou not search from whence thou camest for thy spirit's needs? would'st thou deprive another of thy same journey? i fear for thee, good sir. i fear one day thou shalt arise to find thy world barren of those who would follow the path, but left because thou denied them the journey.

suede

bleu.

__________________
End World Hunger

Ganjx

nessa - thats good that you believe in something (yourself), my only point is, questions like "why are we here?" "why does this sh*t always happen to me?" will never be answered as long as you believe in nothing (other than yourself). there are two things i know, we were created and we create. to believe in yourself is half the battle, to believe in your creator is the other. this is my reality, it doesnt have to be everybody's...but it is my belief that at some point in everybody's "cosmic journey" it will become their reality. if only you knew how alike we are, you wouldnt have replied so defensively. one last thing: your quoting of the word "god" in an attempt to mock me is silly. i use the term loosely because it is the only word for the entity we are speaking of. if you are curious of my religion the answer is i havent one. i need one no more than you. furthermore i dont need to categorize myself as an "atheist" either. my way is a way of life for me...one i like quite well and would like to share. if you dont agree, thats certainly your right.

smokealot - you may differ with me all you want...you dont have to beg. as renn already pointed out, your arrogance is not without a taste of hypocrisy. you misunderstood me. i didnt say "pick any god out of any bible" i said "pick ANY god". make up your own! its my understanding of my reality (in other words: my belief) that you will go where you think youre gonna go. if you believe nothing...you will go nowhere. i believe in everything, so i can go everywhere. this is the wisdom i was trying to put forth. im not trying to shake anyone's faith or convert anyone's religion. i know only too well how hard it is to change someone's mind on this subject. to assume my eyes arent open while yours are still closed would be a mistake. i see you still have some "soul searching" to do. we can shoot the sh*t about god all day man, just dont be so hostile. were just talkin' here.

renn - ive always admired your adamancy of thinking before you post! its a rarity around here. i concur with your statement that were the only creatures on this planet to think in this way. i wouldnt go so far as to say the only in existence (there are worlds upon worlds of creatures in this universe, some more primitive than we. but thats another conversation. ) in any case, doesnt that part of humanity seem rather primitive to you? what i said still stands...
most animals are more advanced than us in every way other than intellect. while i enjoyed your insight on the subject, its nothing that i didnt sum up in my little paragraph. unless im missing something, we agree.

"to beleive in nothing is to give form to the void which does not itself exist, to draw forth the concept of nothing from nothingness and bring it into being. this, if anything, makes beleiving in nothing a truly awsome thing to behold, and as such the humans that do this miraculous thing have been named: skeptics. for they doubt everything, even their own senses, and test all against the nothingness, to prove that everything is nothing in some form."

this describes the thought of an unenlightened version of myself. in my experience skepticism begets pessimism. pessimism begets cynicism. cynicism begets loneliness...not necessarily loneliness with others, but loneliness with yourself. it appears ive made it look as if ive "fallen prey" to religion because i "need the love of a god" to "get me through the day". this is far from the truth. to this day i do not recognize any such being to have snapped his fingers and given us life, along with his "will" for us to carry out. my thoughts on god are more complex than that. my god has room for all your gods. there is no reason for me to argue that every single post in this thread is correct. my god have given us an infinite amount of time and space to create. my god needs nothing from me, and i need nothing from him. he is not even a he, or a she. he/she isnt even a being. its everything. it expands and grows stronger with every thought we think. its a mutual existence we ALL have.

"gods exist, they may make one more powerful, but they may also weaken and destroy someone, for despite your statement, they really do demand a commitment from you. and if you cannot abide by the commitment they ask, you can lose yourself to the god. that is where your zealots come from. with true faith, a strong mind, and will, your can survive having a god in which you beleive, as well as defining your existence through nothingness."

this is not an argument on your part, but rather, an agreement. the only difference is that you point out that you can "lose yourself to the god" where as i say you can lose yourself to the nothing. see to me, god is everything AND nothing. thats what makes it so awesome. the ones who can accept them both are truly the enlightened ones. ill have you know im just a skeptical as the next guy, only now im equally nonskeptic (for lack of a better word). the only other thing id like to challenge is that god is not dependent on anyone (for worship if that was what you were implying). a dependent person's god is dependent. my god is both dependent and independent. a true god doesnt need your worship. see the difference between "my god" and "another's god" is that mine is the universal god. i make no faulty human characterizations about any such being. im simply relying on the fact that no one can disprove that we were created, and the fact that for things to exist as they do...god would have to be twice as big as you can imagine. anyway i gotsta jet...we can catch up later.

Rennoch

i've admired your steadfast loyalty to your concepts. a rarity in this world, to be sure

*sigh*... on to the bettle of words, so that we may actually understand one another. i hate language.

1. |in any case, doesnt that part of humanity seem rather primitive to you? what i said still stands...|

it does not seem "primitive", it is primal. do you understand the difference? i hope so, cause i cannot explain THAT one easily. i'm a follower of the path of shadows (hermetics do these things during their journey.) and as such do not consider running with the beast a primitive act. it's akin to shedding your work clothes at the end of the day, if you will.

2. |this describes the thought of an unenlightened version of myself. in my experience skepticism begets pessimism. pessimism begets cynicism. cynicism begets loneliness...not necessarily loneliness with others, but loneliness with yourself.|

okay.... *long breath out...* picture yourself a small child, usually cradled in the arms of your mother. now, picture she places you on the ground in a park to do some cooking. now picure the three paths you may take: stay where you are (unenlightening blind acceptance) walk around the area and see what's there (spiritual searching, in the sense of looking for or finding the higher being in this case a bumblebee you'd chase ) or crawling into that dark little cave to look around and then explore the glade (the skeptic approach: start by tearing down your own perceptions, then walk in the dark, blind, until cold reason provides you answers.) this is NOT pessimism. it's facing your fears naked. it is the hardest, bravest thing a human can do. rather then say " god or gods exist, i'll pick one" they say " i want proof. does god exist?" and they go about looking for it. they are the quintessential questors (sp?), hunting and exploring their own minds, the world around them, and whatever else is suggested, for the answers. (just so you know, i am not a skeptic. i think they have an idea, just not the right one for me.)

ya know, i do not think i can acheive a proper explanation of skepticism. suffice it to say they see any beleif acccepted blindly as a crutch, which, if you give it hard thought, is difficult for anyone to follow. it takes (ironic, i know^_^) faith.

3. skeptics say you can lose yourself to nothing. and from what i saw, you describe the aether as your god. either that, or the collective unconcious (damn those blasted conformists!) as the higher intelligence. the aether is waht reality is made of ("aether" is, by most accounts of hermetic writing, undefined reality, sort of like goop being made into a pot.)

where we differ in beleif then is that i beleive that "gods", aka incarna, are concepts that use the beleif in them to perpetuate the cycle of faith, as JT taught. this may sound screwy but try it: you may find it enlightening.

the next time your getting stoned, get a cd or tape of some flowing sound. be alone, and meditate on a single idea: "i want to have a conversation with blue." the color. it's a concept. it will speak if you bug it enough. it's an incarna, no different then the christian god. cept it didn't go out and talk to people. when your done, think about what you felt, what you saw and heard and smelled. think about "blue" then tell me/us what it was like. if it changed your perceptions, etc. etc.

"born between the bonfires and the crevice, we are but shadows on the wall" - ignatius tyrias, roman senator killed by lions for helping christians.

 

SirSmokesAlot

Thats hilarious, I give him a taste of his own medicine, and I'm the bad guy. Whodathunkit? You obviously got my point.

Renn, Try typing in modern English and I may read what you wrote about me... Other than that your post seemed like a lot of unsubstantiated speculation about things you havent proven which you spoke of as if it were fact. Bravo!

Rennoch

it was not the blasting of your opponent, tho in debates, that is taboo. no sir, it was the way in which you responded altogether. if you have a problem with the way someone spoke, you do not go out and do the exact same thing. it makes you hypocritical. as simple as that.

unsubstantiated? huh? okay, how about some examples of things i spoke which can be misconstrued as anything other then opinion or personal knowedge?

seriously, i listen, i think, i watch, i learn.

P.S. : if it's about the mini-quotes, some are from Hermetic writings, some are from the book of historical mistakes. for instance "ingatius tyrias" comes from a joke book for history buffs. it means "burning tires"

when you debate an issue, there are but 3 rules to usually be followed:

1. attack the message, not the messenger.

2. if attacked, do not stoop lower then your opponent.

3. do not be hypocritical.

there are two more, but they don't apply here.


when i state facts, i try my best to provide sources. when it's personal knowedge or experience, there is no readily definable source. i mean, where would i look up the effects of marijuana for you specifically? there are thousands of things which go this way. i conculted a friend of mine who is a skeptic for info on that. his version of evidence? the scientific method.

what if the sceintific method is wrong? how does a skeptic prove that?

the path of shadows is merely one of many paths, but one which all seeking knowedge must eventually walk for a time. that's common sense. hermetics seek knowedge, ergo.....

one last thing, sir: there are things in this world i take fact fact which you do not. there are things in this world you take as fact that i do not. this is, despite it's appearance, a very good thing. it means humanity still has shreds of indiviuality.

may the way reveal insight.

Ganjx

renn:
do not be so quick to question my ability to understand.
i share your animosity with words as i hold them in low regard. i still dont think we differ much on the whole "human nature" thing. the biggest difference is you credit most human behaviors as primal, whereas i recognize the majority of our social behaviors as primitive. i am equally proud to "run with the beast" though im unfamiliar with your faith. it is primal and natural to "shed my work clothes at the end of the day" figuratively and literally. however, its primitive and unnatural to shed my brother's blood because of my fear. this is not the way of the beast with which we run. ive come to the conclusion that our collective intelligence is to blame. it has spawned a vast array of insane ideas; none of which are healthy, or natural. i dont think our fellow earth residents are capable of such thoughts. it is in this way i think weve squandered our intellect.

"meditate on a single idea: "i want to have a conversation with blue.""

its funny you should mention this. no bullsh*t, when i was really young i had a conversation with green. you might think im mocking you, and everyone else will think me crazy...but before public schooling halted my enlightenment, i, for whatever reason, decided to delve into the depths of the color green. i couldnt express in words the experience...not then and not now. in fact, had you not mentioned that i totally would have forgotten. ive been told many times my aura is green, im actually quite fond of the color green. in fact, i have the greenest weed in this whole damn town! seriously though, isnt that weird?

before i go id like to say one thing. given the independent nature we both possess, im sure youll disagree with what im about to say...

""gods", aka incarna, are concepts that use the beleif in them to perpetuate the cycle of faith"

as you say "gods aka incarna" and i say "gods aka universe" can you not see two standing truths here? see i believe the universe is the "cosmic wheel" which provides for the "cycle of faith" and vise versa. its a mutual existence, a paradox solely dependent upon itself. its like god gave us existence, and in turn we sustain his existence im sure you have a much more elaborate explanation for your truths...may i add that youre a pretty enlightened individual.

smokealot - im not gonna quarrel with you anymore because im tired and i think ive made my point quite clear above (not to mention the fact we just met in agreement in another thread.) i too, was confused as to why renn decided to go into such thick language. personally i would credit that to some really primo smoke. but if youre really interested in what he said, it was something to the extent of:

shame on you. you rightly expressed your opinion but did so unjustly (a little contradictory? ). you commented on my (ganjx's) "arrogance" and in turn showed me (ganjx) your "arrogance".
what makes you mr know it all? did some really important guy crown you king? what makes you so perfect? you know youre imperfect, so you seek perfection. but i (renn) denote hypocrisy, an injustice committed by you (smokealot). a deadly injustice. do you know your own path (or mine...ganjx...not really sure) do you know for sure what everyone should believe? did you search thoroughly? would you deny me (ganjx) the right to my own beliefs? i (renn) fear for you. i (renn) fear that one day you will realize that no one will follow you because you wont allow it.

anyway....loosely translated, something like that.

Rennoch

i just find it most disconcerting when i must explain something again, because i failed to make it clear the first time. when it hits 5 or 6 times..... well, i'm sure you've been there. ^_^

bloodshed is the response of all critters THAT OVERPOPULATE THE WORLD. need an example?

lemmings too many, and they go for a jaunt down to the nearest cliff for a dive.

misquitoes and other bloodsuckers. they actively destroy themselves if an area cannot support them. they spit the sticky stuff that makes those itches at each other. (it's really freaky to watch.)

wolves. when there are too many in an area, or not enough food and nowhere to go, they kill their weak and infirm, sometimes the children survive, sometimes not.

you spoke with green? i've been told it's rather quiet, softspoken, with a shy streak. blue is a little louder, and a lovely debater. and yes, someone (or many people) would think us mad. pay them no mind on this. until they try, judgement cannot be rendered.

i would be able to see it, but..... universe is an incarna . however, in my humble (i must stop using that word) opinion, faith in other beings, higher or otherwise, serve to keep the mantle of aether slightly unstable, jst enough for little practitioners of magick to weave the will into the tapestry. so in that regard, the only people who would want gods to go away would be those who wanted a purely static world, where everything is predictable. IF you look at it that way.

you missed a statement i made about myself within the speil to SSA: i also stated that i recognize i carry many imperfections within myself, and work towards correcting them.

the opening line, slightly better translated " shame on you. you started well by openly stating the mistake, but you turn and do it yourself? what hypocrisy!"

big difference. to wordsmiths, at any rate.

as for why i wrote it that way: i thought it would be a more enjoyable way to read it. nothing more then simple aesthetics.

SirSmokesAlot

Renn,

I said what I said to show something about what someone said. Had I not worded it the way I did, neither of you may have taken my post as seriously as you did. I demonstrated the behavior about which I was speaking, you both took issue with it, my point was made. Dont like my techniques? Doesnt surprise me one bit.

okay, how about some examples of things i spoke which can be misconstrued as anything other then opinion or personal knowedge?

No where in your post did you mention anything about your theories being your personal opinion. Everything in that post was stated as fact, so I read it that way.

when you debate an issue, there are but 3 rules to usually be followed:

Thanks for revealing the infinite truth of debate to my feeble mind oh wise and powerful master. Maybe I shouldnt have wasted so much time studying! LOL

there are things in this world i take fact fact which you do not. there are things in this world you take as fact that i do not. this is, despite it's appearance, a very good thing.

I agree that we hold different things to be true and factual. There was a group of people not too long ago who believed they would reach heaven by jumping on a comet. They believed that to be fact. I would point out the flaws in their reasoning as well. On this board there is a game of statements being played. One person states their belief and then another. He stated his beliefs in a way that precluded my beliefs (and even my insides! ), so I did the same to him. No big whoop. I do however find it interesting that you took such issue with me doing the same as he had done. So goes the debate...

Ganjx,

Thanks for the translation, but I was being facetious.