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Trocisp

Let me preface all of this with saying that it is my intent to have an honest, free conversation. I'll do my best not to bring my emotions into this thread (or at least keep them tempered to avoid flames), and I'll ask that if you post in this thread, you do the same.

This thread is about Reconciling beliefs, not just religion, my Original post is just an example. I wouldn't recommend posting or reading this thread if you're not okay with your beliefs (not just that of a Higher Power, but in general,) being challenged.

This thread will no doubt evolve as new people post, but to spark this thread off I'd like to start off with the idea that God (the God of Abraham, that means Judaism, Christianity and Islam) is a no more than a concept of human creation, and at that, a relatively poor human creation. (If you have evidence or belief contrary to this, I ask that you respond... if you're okay with the tempered emotions thing)

I'm sure someone clever will come along and point out that it's impossible to know that the God of Abraham doesn't exist, because I would need to have omniscience to know this, but I would put forth that one doesn't need to be all knowing in order to prove that something that is self contradicting by nature (Cubic Sphere's for instance) cannot exist. I'll explain the self contradictory nature of the God of Abraham in a moment, first I want to get to...

The Earth was not created in 7 days. Nor was it created six thousand years ago (which can be deduced from back-dating the genealogy from Adam to Jesus). Sorry, but those things have always bugged me.

... and now to the self contradicting nature of the God of Abraham.

The God of Abraham is a benevolent, omniscience, omnipotent God.

I'll start by saying that this benevolent, omniscience, omnipotent God would and could not by definition allow the people of the world to experience the kind of suffering that goes on in the world today.

There are multiple refutations of this argument, a particularly popular one is that God doesn't intervene in the daily workings of the Universe; this is obviously self contradictory to God being benevolent. No benevolent being with the power to change things can allow the kind of suffering that goes on in the world. This raises the question, does God not have the power to intervene? Either way, he's no longer the God of Abraham.

Another popular refutation of this argument is that God allows sinner to suffer. My question to you is, can a person under the age of three have sinned enough to deserve the suffering that is starvation? Because in India 46% of children under the age of 3 are malnourished.



I'll reiterate, please don't flame or bait another person to flame in this thread. I know that religion (and peoples specific religions) are a hot topic, and I'd like to keep the flaming to a minimum.

__________________
"No references to the need to fight terror can be an argument for restricting human rights." - Vladimir Putin
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Sir Winston Churchill
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
"Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months." - Oscar Wilde
"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who overcomes his enemies." - Aristotle

 

MasterCylinder

I know just how you feel. With all the wars and famine that's all over this planet, it hard to believe there is a god that is watching over us. You read a story about some kid who got his leg bit off by a shark or torn up by a bear and you ask yourself this: If there was a benevolent god, why didn't he stop that animal from injuring or killing a small child? Its not like that shark was going to starve to death if he didn't bite off that kids leg. It says in the bible that Jesus (the son of God) loved the little children but I guess that kid didn't count.

Trocisp

My original post is more meant as an example. For more than just religion.

Although I do agree with that point.

Logos

I do have some interesting opinions on the aforementioned issue of suffering, and also the age of the earth, and the creation myth.

I recently read a fictional tale (at least it was presented as fiction) about an atheist who came across a "master" and was enlightened to the potentialities of history in the process. The story answered these questions for the most part, so l refer you to it instead of trying to express it myself.

It isn't long, but is difficult to read because of the way you have to navigate through it.

While I know that it isn't proof, it is an interesting story that you might enjoy no matter how you take it.

The Story: The Debate of Evolution vs Genesis - Lydia debates Chester & Introduces the Torah Codes

I'll espouse upon my opinions once you have either read the story, or decided to stop reading the story, but at the very least treat it as an interesting work of fiction as the disclaimer states one should. (the disclaimer is at the bottom of the main page)

Nice thread by the way, I dig it.

__________________
Brother Logos
The more I learn, the less I know.
THC Ministry | The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ | The Reluctant Messenger of Science and Religion
True religion is real living, living with all one's soul, with all ones goodness and righteousness. --Albert Einstein

Trocisp

Logos, I skimmed the site, sorry to say I didn't read it all (I got through page one, and skimmed pages two and three before closing it. I booked marked it for later reading - tomorrow at work probably. )


Because, quite frankly, I can't come up with a more eloquent way of refuting Numerology than a fellow skeptic (JayUtah at the BAUT forum), I'm going to quote him directly from a thread called "Bible Codes," I don't believe he'll mind.

 

Logos

The story isn't about the Torah codes, it's about something else. The parts I found interesting come a bit later in the story.

I doubt this story will sway your opinions much, but they do provide an interesting explanation for the creation myth, and some interesting points regarding the discrepancies of the age of the earth, and suffering, the plan of God and the nature of Lucifer.

Keep reading, I'm actually quite interested in what you think of how science and religion are presented.

Trocisp

Okay Logos, I will - tomorrow, though.

I've got to go to bed now, though, because I have work (and a lunch date, wish me luck!) tomorrow.

glorious

This is what I never understood. The way I see it, if you believe in the God of Abraham, you also have to believe in Lucifer, the Devil, Satan, Jinn (whatever want to call "him"). If God exists, then the Devil exists. If the Devil exists couldn't that explain suffering? Evil is present in the Christian creation story, which means even in the very very beginning there was sin and suffering. In Islam, "According to the Qur'an, God created the Satan out of "smokeless fire" (wikipedia). Judaism does not have a clear definition of Satan (I don't think). Either way, in all of these religions an evil force was present in the very beginning.

My point is that even though God is considered omnipotent, he decided to create or allow evil to exist. This has always been an extremely hard concept for me to understand and is one of the reasons I have trouble accepting any of these religions.

I am very interested to see how Logos (or any others who accept God) view the Devil. Do you view him as having a lot of power? Do you view Satan as being more of a figurative "symbol" for sin? or do you truly believe he was a fallen angel from God, who's evil presence is often felt?

Logos

Seek and ye shall find... Most of the time I simply stumble upon interesting answers.

I have always wondered about the concept of Satan myself. I have believed for a long time that ones conscience is ones "hot line" to God, and that ones ego is ones "hot line" to Satan. Either you are predominantly out for selflessness, or selfishness, or some shade of gray in between those two extremes.

Either way, it is your choice as to what you do and how you act in this life. You either choose to listen to your conscience, or your ego. In other words, each of us either manifests the likeness of God, or the likeness of Satan. In this light, the concepts of God and Satan are simply metaphors for what resides within each of us as choice.

I have also likened these concepts as seeds in our consciousness. In that we are each born with a seed of good and a seed of evil, and the sprout of each we cultivate within ourselves through our choices. Whichever we cultivate the most comes to dominate us.

I wrote an interesting article titled "Planting Seeds of Change" a long time ago (4 years last month) For some reason I thought it was more about what I'm talking about here, but alas I'm wrong once again. For nostalgic purposes here is the link...

http://www.marijuana.com/drug-war-he...ds-change.html

But I digress...

As far as any perceived "power" that Satan holds, I would say that Satan holds only as much power as an individual allows. It is our free will to do with as we choose. Ever see The Devils Advocate? I thought it was interesting how Al Pachino (Satan) kept saying how much he loved free will.

In another twist of interesting perspective, I recently stumbled upon (quite coincidentally) a site with an explanation of how Lucifer came to be Satan, and why Satan has it out for humanity. It is the same site that I linked to above for Trocisp. (and subsequently added to my signature block for easy reference) Whether it is fact or fiction it is definitely an interesting perspective. To cut to the chase, see Rebellion of Lucifer: The War of Angels . It describes why Lucifer got pissed at God and tried to wipe out life on the earth some 6,000 years ago, and why God had to "repair" it. Which is why the bible views the earth as 6,000 years old when it just might be that there are millions or even billions of years of time between Genesis 1.1 and Genesis 1.2.

It just might be fiction though, so don't go believing every little thing you read on the internet...

As for the rest of Trocisp's questions regarding suffering, all I can say is that it serves a purpose, and that a great deal of it is something that "we" can alleviate if we would chose to. I remember thinking to myself about an American standing in front of God asking why there is so much hunger in the world, and God replies, look at all the food your country alone threw away, and you expect me to feed the hungry when you could have easily fed those starving masses. especially those who were starving in your own country...

The test isn't about what God can or can't do, it's about what we can or can't do. (or is it will or won't do) The big question in my mind is are we as American's doing all we can to alleviate the suffering we keep expecting God to alleviate?

If God didn't allow us our choice, we wouldn't be free, and there would be no experiment or test or whatever purpose this reality is supposed to be serving...

In the end I view life as education for the soul, and Jesus came to teach us how to graduate from this school by setting an example that even most "Christians" simply don't comprehend...

Either that or I'm completely wrong...

Peace and Love (I wonder if there is a heart and a peace sign in the smilies department so Tro will quit defiling my signature)

Trocisp

I hope you don't mind, but it's late and I want to reply to night, so I'm going to snip around your post. I'll try to cover all the relevant topics, but I can't do my standard line-by-line scientific refutation.


I won't lie - I have quite an ego. However, I have ego for good reason. I'm damned good at what I do. (Rather, I have an ego about specific topics)

I excel in physics and general sciences, and am quite proficient in history. Is that ego?

Is it ego for a two doctors having an argument, and one to say "You had damned well better shut your trap, I know what I'm doing and I'm going to save this patients life,"?

Is that ego? Or is that simply a manifestation of conciousness?

Ego is only as defined as humans make it, similar to the concept of the God of Abraham.

Metaphor; comparing two things without the use of Like or As.

I fail to understand fully, but i think I get your gist. God and Satan are both things created by the human mind in order to better explain emotions that we have?

This would go directly against the Bible (I don't know how much of the OT you've read).

I'm rather fond of free will myself.

And that was a rather good movie, Charlize Theron naked?

The universe was created in the first 6 days. Period. The bible is not to be questioned (as it says multiple times throughout the bible).

Man was created on the 6th day.

Tracing genealogy written into the bible itself (From Adam to Jesus), the world can only be 6 thousand years old. Adam was the first human, and Jesus was his direct descendant. This can all be traced, if the bible is to be taken as fact.

It is fiction.

Ah, but the question is about the authenticity of the God of Abraham.

God; an omnipotent, omniscience, benevolent power.

The statement I made is that it would be impossible for something with all three characteristics to exist, and for us to live in the world we do today.

Either the God of Abraham doesn't know about the suffering going on around the world, in which case he cannot be blamed for not changing it, he can't change it, in which he cannot be blamed for not changing it, or he doesn't care. No matter which way the cake is cut, It's still not the God of Abraham, because he(she/it) doesn't have the prerequisite characteristics.

Having choices =/= allowing suffering.

If all of the lands of the Earth were Fertile, and many crops could be planted everywhere, we'd still have free choice (to war, to fight, to make peace and love or sin as we chose), we just wouldn't have starvation and malnourishment. I fail to see how free choice and starvation are linked in any way.

Christians certainly don't follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, that's certain. Weather or not this education of the soul you speak of (from the Aquarian Bible) is anything more than a warped (not in a bad way) of Buddhism is yet-to-be-seen.

Or, I'm completely wrong and will burn in hell for eternity for my transgressions against God.

I'd like to think that any "God" would appreciate the fact that I did my best to help people any way I could, rather than nullifying my lifes work based on the fact that I didn't believe in a story book assembled over a few thousand years that was meant to teach moral values and instill fear of a greater power (so a few people could gain control).

I will defile whatever I damn well please!

How have I been defiling you signature?