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icetoad

I see your point, but I honestly believe none of this just happened. I look at what I see as miracles all around me every single day. (and some really messed up creations as well)

I don't believe anything was an accident. But I also don't believe in chance. Perhaps its a need I have to give meaning to everything. Perhaps it's upbringing. I don't really know why I feel the way I do about things.

And although I said I find it impossible, actually I think I just don't want to believe those things. I'd prolly feel awful lonely in a universe where there is no greater power. No "creator" figure.

As far as the beginning of life being just chemical reactions...

What are the odds? And why haven't we reproduced those same chemical reactions?

And I guess my bottom line is, why has every societal group in recorded history, and every societal group for which we have an archaelogical record seem to have some sort of creator belief?

By the way, it's okay to have a go at me. I'm old enough to take it

__________________
There are none so blind, as those who
will not see.

 

EeJay

First of all, i'm glad you didn't take offense at my post. It's happened before when I very rarely mean offense, so thank you for that.

Well, we actually have replicated those reactions, that's how we can call it fact. It was done decades ago actually, the names of the scientists involved elude me at the moment as I learnt this a while ago, but it's been done. If you really want proof, I can dig up some sources. Still, it doesn't prove Evolution outright, it just proves that life can be formed given the right environment.

As for historical civilisations and such, well, with their limited knowledge, i'm not surprised they concluded on some divine power. Modern science is pretty freaky with what we can discover now, it's also exciting and a little frightening at times. I believe we're living in a "turn of the tide" era, where a lot of traditional thinking is getting revised and lots of new theories with evidence for backing is providing totally new insights in the world and beyond.

__________________
Experience is an honest teacher.

Mamabudz

...nope Ashtar...uh Ishtar...I mean Ishtarte...could be Esther....

or perhaps Venus?

(Pssst...the Goddess is coming...and is She Pissed!)

Oh and the original question about the rib...and Adam...

The original language of the written text that was put down in a place called Biblios and later called the Bible which containes 2 creation stories is Hebrew (Ivrit).

"Adam" or A'dom in hebrew means red clay, and Adam was made of the red clay found in the Mesopotamia area of the fertile crescent netween the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers, the ancinet land of Eden and the first area of civilization in Asia Minor, from whence comes the mythology. Eve coming from a rib is the extrapolation of another mythology of the same epoch, approximately 5,000 years ago or 3000 BC

Iffen y'all want to know more...I'll tell ya about it if you like!

Hugz,

Mama Budz

Entrigue2k1

Ok, this might seem like a stupid question, but where did God come from? It all boils down to what came first, man or god? Religion to me is a crutch people rely on for guidance and answers. Thats why I think people around the world believe different things. If one god DID exist, wouldn't he make his presence known all around the world? How come Asians, Africans, and Indians get denied the glory of God? People can't believe what they don't know about.

Another thing, why isn't there anything in the Bible about dinosaurs? There's no denying they existed way before humans, so why did God reate them?

Religion just doesn't have the answers for me. Until God can come out of the closet and make himself present like in the days of Jesus, people are just not gonna believe. It's easy for the people documented in the Bible to have faith because they got to SEE some of the miracles. Turn my 8th into an ounce and then I'll believe!!

Crazy Horse

Aliens man... aliens.

(My new avatar is kicking ass...)

__________________
My lands are where my dead lie buried.

 

kindGSL

My thinking is god is the great spirit. A whole lot larger than only life on this planet and time. I don't worry about the details that books say about god. How can they know? Books are the works of man and prone to at least a few mistakes. God's book is nature, which includes all the people and all their songs, books and stories. We should study them all.

Each of us taking a single view is simplistic, but there is a need for that, we are simple. God must enjoy all the varity of our views and opinions to encourage so many. What does a bird think of god? Bet it flies. A fish would naturally think god swims.

In a way they all are right, but not seeing the entire picture, like the story of the blind men and the elephant. Look for the things different religions have in common, like a scientific sampling project and you are more likely to see a 'realer' god in the commonalities.

If god was so easy to figure out wouldn't everyone?

Mamabudz

Not a stupid question at all. And as you may guess, different religions probably have different answers. The usual answer however is G_d is and always was and Man "discovered" or recognized or evolved and understanding of the G_d concept.



That is actually a very concise summation of the stimuli that has created the various religious belief systems throughout man's history



Yes, but everyone recognize that existance?
Would everyone recognize it in the same way?
So maybe G_d has...
I know that historically many who believed they knew of G_d's presence prosyletized to people in far off lands -- assuming that these heathens could have no recognition of G_d in their pagan belief system.

This is especially poignant during the 1st Crusade (1096 AD) when Western Christian knights on their way to save Jerusalem from it's Muslim, Jewish and other inhabitants seen as usurpers of Christendom, killed 10s of thousands of Eastern Orthodox Christians simply because they were not recognized to be fellow Christians in the "true" religion of Roman Catholoscism.



They are not denied G_d except by members of other religions who denied their right to worship as they feel proper. I feel it is the responsibility of all educated persons to learn of other's religions as a means of respectful coexistence in a modern world.



Some Creationist scholars would say that dinosaurs were placed by G_d as a test of faith.

Personally I believe that whether the world was Created by G_d or was the culmination of the process of the Big Bang theory and that evolution throught the age of the great lizards to the age of the mammals in which we find ourselves today -- isn't it remarkable that we are even here? And that we are here is in itself the miracle.


...Believe me you don't want to have lived in the 2nd temple period under Herodotus ... over 2000 crucified in one year alone!

As for seeing miracles... if you got yourself a seed in that 1/8th I can tell you how to turn it into an ounce...that's part of the miracle of life.

One last word...don't confuse Faith and Belief with religion. You don't need a religion to have either Faith or Belief, and you don't ven have to attend a specific church, mosque, or synagogue -- doesn't really cost anything either.

...have a cookie

Hugz,

Mama Budz

suede

has been wondering,could god have come from that tree that fell in the forest when noone was listening? b.s.

1254

__________________
End World Hunger

SigourneyReefer

The following is just me expressing my personal worldview, and it is not meant to attack or offend anybody.

I, personally, believe in the Christian God. Although some of you have already mentioned certain aspects of this debate I would just like to toss in my opinion, and maybe somebody can get something new from it. On the topic of which came first, God or man. I believe that God always has been and always will be, thus He came first. Man was then created in a like-image of God, so God could have companionship. However, man was given (as somebody already pointed out) free-will. He was given the choice between following his Lord or doing as he pleased. Through persuasion of the devil, man and woman ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Thus, giving us an understanding of the difference between good and evil. Now, we have become able to choose good or evil.

Another common question is, "why would God allow us to make wrong choices and to allow hurtful things to take place?" The reason we were given free-will was so that we could choice God over our ways. God did not want to create a mass group of followers, who had no choice but to serve Him. It would all be for nothing if they never knew anything but God. By giving us free-will we were allowed to explore the world and ourselves and all other possibilities. Essentially leaving God behind us, with Him hoping for us to return. God gave us the ability to gather data and make our own educated decisions. As for the hurtful things. When the first original sin took place, God brought pain into the world, which was to serve as punishments for our sins. Although not all pain is punishment, some of it is to test our faith. Read the book of Job for a better understanding of having your faith tested.

As for the dinosaurs, there is nothing in the Bible that says He never DIDN'T create dinosaurs. For the most part, all of the animals were generalized during the creation process. They were seperated by land, air, water, etc. etc. The Bible doesn't say, "...and God created felines and canines." God just did, what I assume to be, mass creation and poured out thousands and thousands of different species during this time. I firmly believe that dinosaurs were a part of this, and that they were created by God.

Now onto evolution by a guided being. Theistic evolution. I haven't brushed up on this section in a while, so if there are any false facts please correct me. It is basically the belief that there is a God, and God created many things. However, these things were also given the ability to evolve. I believe this does have a lot of validity to it. I do not believe that we, as humans, evolved from monkeys or lizards or any other species. I believe that we were always as we are now. However, I do believe that man evolves in and of himself. Skin tones change to adapt to regional climates. Our bodys evolve to combat diseases and various other things. I even believe that some other species do evolve from one species to another, but I believe it is guided and intended. I do not believe that it is just some random act. I feel this world is too perfect in its creation to be a random act.

Which moves onto my next point. Proof of creation and that God exists. There are two books that I would highly recommend you read. The first, Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell (and I believe it is Volume 2). I'm having trouble remembering the name of the second one. If you feel like trying to find it, it has "Worldview" in the title and it was a very thick book with a brownish/maroonish color. The first one examines a lot of evidence that has been found which might aid in the proof of Christianity, and examines the validity of these findings. The second book takes some of the more dominant worldviews, gives info. on each of them, and then compares them to each other and the laws of a worldview. Both are very interesting and worth the read. Back to my original topic. There is actually an extensive amount of proof that can be found to support the Bible. One for example, is that pieces of wood were found a while back that were dated back to around the time of Noah. When more pieces of the wood were found, it became apparent that the pieces were part of a very large boat. It's been a very long time since I've read up on the progress of this, but for those interested in this or any other forms of proof, I'm more than willing to supply some.

I just woke up, so my brain isn't running full throttle yet. But here is just some stuff that I could think of off the top of my head. If anybody has any questions or would like me to give any specific info. (proof or whatnot) feel free to ask. Remember, nobody knows for certain what is truth and what isn't. We are just given facts to allow us to make an educated decision. So, don't disrespect somebody just because they don't believe in the same things you do. Always keep an open mind to everybody.

-S. Reefer-

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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but weed will make me invincible.

Entrigue2k1

I don't was to sound like an ass or anythiong of the sort, but most of the rebuttals to my points seem overly generalized and the main points circumvented. I hear "It's because God gave us this, to test this, giving us this." I think it's just easier for everyone to say God did something rather than finding an explanation with concrete evidence. I'm sorry, faith isn't gonna convince me.

"As for seeing miracles... if you got yourself a seed in that 1/8th I can tell you how to turn it into an ounce...that's part of the miracle of life."-True, this is a miracle, but it's Mother Nature's miracle. The miracle I need to witness is one similar to the one Jesus has done. You know, 'something-that-is-out-of-the-ordinary' miracle. Here's a good one; end world hunger. From the books I read, God has the power.

"As for the dinosaurs, there is nothing in the Bible that says He never DIDN'T create dinosaurs." -To me, this response doesn't prove any more or less the existence of God, but just that an explanation was circumvented with a play on words.

Ok, I like to throw out questions on religion. so here's another one....

Noa's Ark is an old fable of a man who's task was to gather a male and female of every animal onto a boat during a massive storm/flood. Ok, I know that these stories have been changed over the years of translation, but what is the story trying convey? God was vengeful at Man and wanted to destroy the earth.

Now, 1- God getting mad at man after he gave him free will?
2- Noa obviously could not have gathered ALL these animals in the world.

Im in no way bashing any relgion, I personally just need a little more evidence of God's existence than most people.