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shibshib · 09-06-2008, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sec

Ferral cats are destructive and spread disease.

Ok...

Quote:

They get into garbage, piss and shit in all the gardens, flowerbeds, etc...

I agree...

Quote:

They fight with and kill domestic pets.

Never personally heard of a ferral cat killing a pet, but I totally agree they probably due in problem areas.

Quote:

Need more reasons?

Yes... I would love at least one good reason as to why it is ok to arbitrarily cause harm and pain to an animal because you don't like it.

I would have more sympathy for you if you were hunting the ferral cats for food, weird clothing... or hell, just hunting them for sport... but to shoot an animal with a paintball gun (which, depending on where you hit the cat could cause a very slow and painful death) is atrocious and shows a real lack of compassion.

Quote:

I never said it was hunting for sport any more than the video of shooting wolves from the aircraft was hunting for sport. It is more pest control.

So... you think hurting animals with a paintball gun is "pest control", or do you shoot them at close range/multiple times until they are dead?

Quote:

Do you put out rat poison? Do you set mouse traps? Same thing.

Any rat poison or mouse trap I have ever put out was designed to kill mice/rats... not designed to entertain me with watching an animal in pain.

Quote:

Extermination of unwanted vermin.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share Thishunt (hŭnt) Pronunciation Key
v. hunt·ed, hunt·ing, hunts

v. tr.

To pursue (game) for food or sport.
To search through (an area) for prey: hunted the ridges.
To make use of (hounds, for example) in pursuing game.
To pursue intensively so as to capture or kill: hunted down the escaped convict.
To seek out; search for.
To drive out forcibly, especially by harassing; chase away: hunted the newcomers out of town.

Inhumane

–adjective not humane; lacking humanity, kindness, compassion, etc.
[Origin: 1590–1600; var. of inhuman; see in-3, humane

]

If you can show me a single report that shows how harming feral cats with paintball guns is the most efficient and humane way of dealing with feral cat problems, then by all means... link me please.

***Plainsman1963*** · 09-06-2008, 07:10 AM

Back on topic....

Book banning:

Quote:

Here's the story about Palin's book-banning try as mayor

WASILLA -- Back in 1996, when she first became mayor, Sarah Palin asked the city librarian if she would be all right with censoring library books should she be asked to do so.

According to news coverage at the time, the librarian said she would definitely not be all right with it. A few months later, the librarian, Mary Ellen Emmons, got a letter from Palin telling her she was going to be fired. The censorship issue was not mentioned as a reason for the firing. The letter just said the new mayor felt Emmons didn't fully support her and had to go.

Emmons had been city librarian for seven years and was well liked. After a wave of public support for her, Palin relented and let Emmons keep her job.

It all happened 12 years ago and the controversy long ago disappeared into musty files. Until this week. Under intense national scrutiny, the issue has returned to dog her. It has been mentioned in news stories in Time Magazine and The New York Times and is spreading like a virus through the blogosphere.

The stories are all suggestive, but facts are hard to come by. Did Palin actually ban books at the Wasilla Public Library?

In December 1996, Emmons told her hometown newspaper, the Frontiersman, that Palin three times asked her -- starting before she was sworn in -- about possibly removing objectionable books from the library if the need arose.

Emmons told the Frontiersman she flatly refused to consider any kind of censorship. Emmons, now Mary Ellen Baker, is on vacation from her current job in Fairbanks and did not return e-mail or telephone messages left for her Wednesday.

When the matter came up for the second time in October 1996, during a City Council meeting, Anne Kilkenny, a Wasilla housewife who often attends council meetings, was there.

Like many Alaskans, Kilkenny calls the governor by her first name.

"Sarah said to Mary Ellen, 'What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?" Kilkenny said.

"I was shocked. Mary Ellen sat up straight and said something along the line of, 'The books in the Wasilla Library collection were selected on the basis of national selection criteria for libraries of this size, and I would absolutely resist all efforts to ban books.'"

Palin didn't mention specific books at that meeting, Kilkenny said.

Palin herself, questioned at the time, called her inquiries rhetorical and simply part of a policy discussion with a department head "about understanding and following administration agendas," according to the Frontiersman article.

Were any books censored banned? June Pinell-Stephens, chairwoman of the Alaska Library Association's Intellectual Freedom Committee since 1984, checked her files Wednesday and came up empty-handed.

Pinell-Stephens also had no record of any phone conversations with Emmons about the issue back then. Emmons was president of the Alaska Library Association at the time.Books may not have been pulled from library shelves, but there were other repercussions for Emmons.

Four days before the exchange at the City Council, Emmons got a letter from Palin asking for her resignation. Similar letters went to police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton and finance director Duane Dvorak. John Cooper, a fifth director, resigned after Palin eliminated his job overseeing the city museum.

Palin told the Anchorage Daily News then that the letters were just a test of loyalty as she took on the mayor's job, which she'd won from three-term mayor John Stein in a hard-fought election. Stein had hired many of the department heads. Both Emmons and Stambaugh had publicly supported him against Palin.

Emmons survived the loyalty test and a second one a few months later. She resigned in August 1999, two months before Palin was voted in for a second mayoral term.

Palin might have become a household name in the last week, but Kilkenny, who is not a Palin fan, is on her own small path to Internet fame. She sent out an e-mail earlier this week to friends and family answering, from her perspective, the question Outsiders are asking any Alaskan they know: "Who is this Sarah Palin?"

Kilkenny's e-mail got bounced through cyberspace and ended up on news blogs. Now the small-town mom and housewife is scheduling interviews with national news media and got her name on the front page of The New York Times, even if it was misspelled.

McClatchy Washington Bureau | 09/05/2008 | Here's the story about Palin's book-banning try as mayor

Troopergate:

Quote:

Palin's stall

Gov. Sarah Palin is taking the wrong approach to Troopergate. She should be practicing the open and transparent, ethical and accountable government she promised when running for governor and boasts about now that she's on the national stage.

nstead, Gov. Palin has begun stonewalling the Legislature's attempt to get the bottom of allegations that she, her family or staff violated ethical or state personnel rules.

As a result, the Troopergate allegations hang over Palin's future and cloud her candidacy for vice president.

The allegations are that she, her family or administration improperly pressured then-Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan to fire Gov. Palin's ex-brother-in-law, state trooper Mike Wooten, who had been in the middle of a custody dispute with Palin's sister.

In July, when legislators started talking about conducting an investigation, Palin denied any wrongdoing and said she welcomed an investigation.

"Hold me accountable," she said.

The Legislature took her up on that offer. But this week, she basically told the Legislature, "Never mind."

Palin's lawyer has asked the Legislature to drop its investigation. He had the governor file an ethics complaint against herself, in a bid to turn the entire matter over to the state Personnel Board, which would hire an independent investigator.

This is not an open and transparent attempt to establish Gov. Palin's accountability. It is an attempt to drag out the investigation until after voters decide the fate of her vice-presidential bid.

Instead, Gov. Palin should honor her pledge to cooperate with the Legislature's investigation, conducted by former state prosecutor Steve Branchflower.

She could start by telling aide Frank Bailey he has to talk to the legislative investigator. She should fire him if he doesn't.

Bailey was caught on an audio recording of a phone conversation with a Public Safety Department official, in which Bailey pushed to get Wooten fired.

Bailey was put on paid leave, not fired. A spokeswoman for Palin said that while Bailey is on the state payroll, Palin can direct him to cooperate with the legislative investigation.

So why is Bailey still on the payroll, after he bailed on a scheduled interview with the legislative investigator Wednesday?

The Legislature hasn't given its investigator the power to subpoena, or compel, testimony of witnesses. Subpoenas appeared unnecessary, since it appeared the governor and administration would be cooperating.

That's over. It's time for the subpoenas.

The Legislature's investigation is supposed to be wrapped up by Oct. 31. That's obviously poor timing from the standpoint of the McCain-Palin presidential campaign, coming just a few days before the national election.

Instead of trying to delay the whole thing, Palin should take a cue from U.S. Sen. Ted Stevens, who asked that his corruption trial be moved up so it would be completed well ahead of the November general election. Voters deserve to know the outcome of Sen. Stevens trial and the investigation into Palin.

When this investigation into Troopergate started, Gov. Palin's response was refreshingly open. Since she became the Republican candidate for vice president, her approach has changed for the worse. America deserves the same openness and ethics from vice-presidential candidate Palin that she promised to Alaska voters in 2006.

BOTTOM LINE: Gov. Palin is stonewalling on Troopergate; the Legislature should issue subpoenas.

'Threat'?

Palin's lawyer tries to play Secret Service card

Gov. Sarah Palin's lawyer, Thomas Van Flein, made an absurd threat in his battle to get the Legislature to back off its ethics investigation of the governor and her staff.

Van Flein said legislative investigator Steve Branchflower tried to call First Gentleman Todd Palin directly on "a secure and confidential line. This represents a serious security breach that we may be obligated to report to the Secret Service."

Hello? Branchflower is acting on behalf of the Legislature. That's a security breach?

Lawyers are supposed to vigorously represent their clients, but claiming that a legislative investigator's phone call may be a security matter worthy of Secret Service attention is ridiculous.

Gov. Palin should keep her legal attack dog on a shorter leash.

BOTTOM LINE: More obstruction from Palin in Troopergate.

Palin's stall: Opinion | adn.com

On earmarks:

Quote:

Out of bounds! Blackburn wrong on Palin and earmarks

Throw the flag against: Rep. Marsha Blackburn, R-Tenn.

Call: Illegal shift

What happened: In her remarks Thursday evening to the Republican National Convention in St. Paul, Minn., Blackburn lauded Republican vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin as a strong woman who stands up to men who want pork-barrel spending.

She called the Alaska governor, "a woman with a bravery that only a mother of five can summon who said `thanks but no thanks' to the good old boys and their earmarks. And it is an honor for me to quote those constituents that I have heard from today when I say, 'It's about damn time!' "

Why that's wrong: Rather than saying no thanks to earmarks, Palin has been saying yes, please, for several years.

As the mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, she hired lobbyist Steve Silver, a former aide to Alaska Sen. Ted Stevens, to seek federal earmarks. Some of them ended up on John McCain's list of suspect spending.

In her first year as governor, Palin sought fewer earmarks than her predecessor did, but she still requested 52 federal earmarks totaling $256 million, according to the Anchorage Daily News, a McClatchy newspaper. This year, her second in office, she sought 31 earmarks totaling $197 million.

Penalty: 5 yards for loss of credibility.

McClatchy Washington Bureau | 09/05/2008 | Out of bounds! Blackburn wrong on Palin and earmarks

Marvin420 · 09-06-2008, 02:58 PM

Do you even care to know what the trooper did?

**Vicki** · 09-06-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvin420

Do you even care to know what the trooper did?

Not really, because whatever he did does not condone what she did to him, or the librarian. It's an abuse of power.

Trocisp · 09-06-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvin420

Do you even care to know what the trooper did?

It's irrelevant, if the trooper broke a law or rule while in the course of duty, it should've been an issue for Internal affairs or his police chief to deal with.

It's completely inappropriate for a Mayor/Gov. to make calls to get a Trooper fired, especially if that trooper is her sisters ex husband, mid custody battle.

Marvin420 · 09-06-2008, 05:18 PM

The governor is the head of the State Police.
We had a trooper here in NC that abused his police dog and they (his superiors) only gave him a reprimand. The governor intervened and said that wasn't enough and he was fired.
BTW...the Alaskan trooper used a stun gun on a teenager.

**Sec** · 09-06-2008, 05:20 PM

She never asked the librarian to remove any books. She asked the librarian "If you are asked, WOULD YOU remove any books...

Quote:

Four days before the exchange at the City Council, Emmons got a letter from Palin asking for her resignation. Similar letters went to police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton and finance director Duane Dvorak. John Cooper, a fifth director, resigned after Palin eliminated his job overseeing the city museum.

Palin told the Anchorage Daily News then that the letters were just a test of loyalty as she took on the mayor's job, which she'd won from three-term mayor John Stein in a hard-fought election. Stein had hired many of the department heads. Both Emmons and Stambaugh had publicly supported him against Palin.

Emmons survived the loyalty test and a second one a few months later. She resigned in August 1999, two months before Palin was voted in for a second mayoral term.

Emmons wasn't fired, she resigned ----- almost 4 years later

Most elected chief executive officers remove the last administrations appointed officials and appoint their own. All the way from the US President on down to small town mayors, even Boy Scout Troop leaders will appoint assistants of their own choosing.

As far as troopergate, she is doing what the law allows. IF you don't like it, then fight to change the laws regarding what she is allowed to do in the investigative process. She has broken no laws. If Branchflower didn't have security clearance, then he shouldn't have used or had the number to the secure line. I don't care who he was "representating". Bailey was the one actually caught pushing for Wooten to be fired. All you have said in this entire article was not that she actually did anything improper, but that she hasn't done what you THINK she SHOULD do according to you (or the author of the article).

Requesting government (federal) funding is what small town entities in America (and large cities and States) do. IF she, as Mayor, didn't try to bite into the free apple of the Federal Government trough, then she wouldn't have been serving her constituents to the best of her ability. Would you rather she just sit there and sign payroll checks and twiddle her thumbs? You don't say how many of those requests were actually fulfilled. I put in for State and Federal grant monies all the time. If you don't ask, you don't get. It is the Chief Executive Officer's job to obtain all the money that entity is eligible for. You never elect a mayor then be satisfied when that mayor never accompolishes anything. If there is no State or Federal funding, then local, municipal taxes must be raised to make up for the shortfall. She was serving her constituents well, as she was elected to do.

Quote:

Any rat poison or mouse trap I have ever put out was designed to kill mice/rats... not designed to entertain me with watching an animal in pain.

Just because you don't watch it, doesn't mean that rat or mouse doesn't suffer in pain from the poison eating at its guts or the mouse struggling or starving to death in the trap. What do you think happens to them? They don't just vaporize [humanely] into thin air.

The ferral cats are now not coming around any longer. The elderly woman who used to live next door was feeding them and providing shelter for them in the way of plywood boxes in the alleys and her backyard. Now there are at least 20 of them on this block alone. They are inbred and a huge nuisance. They don't come around our place so much anymore (thanks to our "deterant method".) Also, the neighbor on the other side also feeds them.... Antifreeze. (sort of like you feed to the mice and rats, but according to you, that's ok because you don't see them suffer

). You can't shoot a (real) gun in town to get rid of the cats in a more [humane] way, so I guess your way is better than mine? You poison or trap them until they die. I make my property undesireable for them. They now know if they come around here, they will feel pain. They don't come around so much anymore. This winter, without the shelter and food provided by the elderly neighbor, most of them (hopefully) will die of exposure and/or starvation. (Yeah, that sounds better, doesn't it?) I would rather the old lady never started feeding and protecting them. That way, there wouldn't have been so many in the first place, but there they are and we are left to manage them.

Quote:

Erase 'Feral cats', and add human.

---

My intentions were not to start a huge argument. Simply to understand others views on this type of hunting. I just can't see how we are cutting acres and acres of there forests, there homes. And say that they inconvenience us. We give inconvenience to the animals that are in zoo's simply because they are extinct do to over hunting. And to hunt these animals down simply for a thrill is kinda off balance to me.

Yeah, lets let the forests grow and grow until they become a huge fuel pile for forest fires. Just because forest trees are cut, isn't a bad thing. Most of the time, it is a good thing. We suppressed all fires for so long that there is now so much overgrow un the forests that there isn't forage for plant eating animals anyway. However; this is another subject again.

We do hunt humans that are destructive and kill others. We put them in jails and sometimes we even "exterminate" them, but only after letting them suffer in a "trap" for 7 - 10 years. Because a "kitty cat" is cute, doesn't mean it can't also be destructive.

Marvin420 · 09-06-2008, 05:31 PM

I like cats and anyone that tortures or condones the torture of small animals is in serious need of psychiatric care.
That said...I doubt anyone here is condoning such behavior.
People who own pets need to take proper care of their pets and not let them run wild.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sec

What do you think happens to them?

They bleed out internally.

I am one of those people who feed stray cats. I can tell they belong to other people because some of them have collars on. I feed them because they are hungry. They do keep the snakes out of my yard, though. I saw one of the cats fighting with a small copperhead....totally freaked me out.

**sterbo** · 09-06-2008, 05:50 PM

Palin church promotes converting gays
Friday, September 5, 2008

(09-05) 17:41 PDT Anchorage, Alaska (AP) --

Gov. Sarah Palin's church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer.

"You'll be encouraged by the power of God's love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality," according to the insert in the bulletin of the Wasilla Bible Church, where Palin has prayed for about six years.

Palin's conservative Christian views have energized that part of the GOP electorate, which was lukewarm to John McCain's candidacy before he named her as his vice presidential choice. She is staunchly anti-abortion, opposing exceptions for rape and incest, and opposes gay marriage and spousal rights for gay couples.

Focus on the Family, a national Christian fundamentalist organization, is conducting the "Love Won Out" Conference in Anchorage, about 30 miles from Wasilla.

Palin, campaigning with McCain in the Midwest on Friday, has not publicly expressed a view on the so-called "pray away the gay" movement. Larry Kroon, senior pastor at Palin's church, was not available to discuss the matter Friday, said a church worker who declined to give her name.

Gay activists in Alaska said Palin has not worked actively against their interests, but early in her administration she supported a bill to overrule a court decision to block state benefits for gay partners of public employees. At the time, less than one-half of 1 percent of state employees had applied for the benefits, which were ordered by a 2005 ruling by the Alaska Supreme Court.

Palin reversed her position and vetoed the bill after the state attorney general said it was unconstitutional. But her reluctant support didn't win fans among Alaska's gay population, said Scott Turner, a gay activist in Anchorage.

"Less than 1 percent of state employees would even apply for benefits, so why make a big deal out of such a small number?" he said.

"I think gay Republicans are going to run away" if Palin supports efforts like the prayers to convert gays, said Wayne Besen, founder of the New York-based Truth Wins Out, a gay rights advocacy group. Besen called on Palin to publicly express her views now that she's a vice presidential nominee.

"People are looking at Sarah Palin as someone who might feasibly be in the White House," he said.
.
.
.
*RACHEL D'ORO, Associated Press Writer

**Sec** · 09-06-2008, 06:06 PM

Just to clarify, these cats were never anyone's pet. They were born wild and continue to breed each cat has about 2-3 litters per year and multiplies like wildfire. The elderly neighbor took pity on a couple wild cats a couple years ago and started feeding them. Last winter, she started putting out plywood boxes for them to have shelter. Now, like I said, just a couple years later, on one block alone, there are about 20 of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterbo

Gay activists in Alaska said Palin has not worked actively against their interests, but early in her administration she supported a bill to overrule a court decision to block state benefits for gay partners of public employees. At the time, less than one-half of 1 percent of state employees had applied for the benefits, which were ordered by a 2005 ruling by the Alaska Supreme Court.

Palin reversed her position and vetoed the bill after the state attorney general said it was unconstitutional. But her reluctant support didn't win fans among Alaska's gay population, said Scott Turner, a gay activist in Anchorage.

"Less than 1 percent of state employees would even apply for benefits, so why make a big deal out of such a small number?" he said.

Lets see, she supported a bill that blocked benefits for Boyfriends/Girlfriends of State employees. If they were married, then that would be a different issue. They weren't, so they aren't entitled to benefits. No heterosexual unmarried couple are eligible for spousal benefits, why should homosexuals be entitled? Change the law allowing gays to marry, then they would be eligible.

Ok, the States Attorney General advised her that her belief was unconstitutional, and despite her own beliefs, she did what was best for Alaska, and upheld the constitution. How is that a bad thing?

You can't let the number of those affected sway a ruling. Just because it affects only a few, doesn't make it right or wrong. Either they are eligible or they aren't. It shouldn't matter how many apply. Make a policy and stick with it.

09-06-2008, 05:50 PM	#199
sterbo sailor dog... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 5,728 Grams: 19,139.62 Groans: 28 Groaned at 20 Times in 15 Posts Thanks: 2,753 Thanked 3,316 Times in 1,444 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: -1.000%	Palin church promotes converting gays Friday, September 5, 2008 (09-05) 17:41 PDT Anchorage, Alaska (AP) -- Gov. Sarah Palin's church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer. "You'll be encouraged by the power of God's love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality," according to the insert in the bulletin of the Wasilla Bible Church, where Palin has prayed for about six years. Palin's conservative Christian views have energized that part of the GOP electorate, which was lukewarm to John McCain's candidacy before he named her as his vice presidential choice. She is staunchly anti-abortion, opposing exceptions for rape and incest, and opposes gay marriage and spousal rights for gay couples. Focus on the Family, a national Christian fundamentalist organization, is conducting the "Love Won Out" Conference in Anchorage, about 30 miles from Wasilla. Palin, campaigning with McCain in the Midwest on Friday, has not publicly expressed a view on the so-called "pray away the gay" movement. Larry Kroon, senior pastor at Palin's church, was not available to discuss the matter Friday, said a church worker who declined to give her name. Gay activists in Alaska said Palin has not worked actively against their interests, but early in her administration she supported a bill to overrule a court decision to block state benefits for gay partners of public employees. At the time, less than one-half of 1 percent of state employees had applied for the benefits, which were ordered by a 2005 ruling by the Alaska Supreme Court. Palin reversed her position and vetoed the bill after the state attorney general said it was unconstitutional. But her reluctant support didn't win fans among Alaska's gay population, said Scott Turner, a gay activist in Anchorage. "Less than 1 percent of state employees would even apply for benefits, so why make a big deal out of such a small number?" he said. "I think gay Republicans are going to run away" if Palin supports efforts like the prayers to convert gays, said Wayne Besen, founder of the New York-based Truth Wins Out, a gay rights advocacy group. Besen called on Palin to publicly express her views now that she's a vice presidential nominee. "People are looking at Sarah Palin as someone who might feasibly be in the White House," he said. . . . *RACHEL D'ORO, Associated Press Writer __________________

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09-06-2008, 02:58 PM	#193
Marvin420 Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 311 Grams: 1,147.35 Groans: 6 Groaned at 63 Times in 37 Posts Thanks: 11 Thanked 63 Times in 46 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Do you even care to know what the trooper did?

09-06-2008, 05:18 PM	#196
Marvin420 Banned Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 311 Grams: 1,147.35 Groans: 6 Groaned at 63 Times in 37 Posts Thanks: 11 Thanked 63 Times in 46 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	The governor is the head of the State Police. We had a trooper here in NC that abused his police dog and they (his superiors) only gave him a reprimand. The governor intervened and said that wasn't enough and he was fired. BTW...the Alaskan trooper used a stun gun on a teenager.

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