MasterCylinder

You made some very good counter points.
About Iraq and the surge. It now appears that the "surge" is permanent. GW said it wouldn't take long and they would come home. I guess we got lied to again.
The "cut and run" arguement is strictly bullshit. If I don't like a movie, I get up and leave. There's nothing wrong with admitting it was one big mistake based on lies. Once the lies are revealed and we continue with this insane war, all the troops that die after the facts are known have then died in vain.
The warring factions in Iraq have been hating each other for a thousand years and they'll have to fix their own problems.

Swabeky

the gold standard doesn't work. Yes, it is anti inflationary, but it also stifles growth and completely handcuffs any efforts to exert monetary policy. If every other nation was on the gold standard, then maybe, MAYBE it might work (it still doesn't address the problem of hampering growth, but that's not the point). Fixed exchange rate regimes (which is what the gold standard is) do not work. Eventually there's a run on the currency and it collapses. It happened to the United States in the 1970's.


It was the Federal Reserve that ended stagflation in the late 70's and who's monetary policy has kept what recessions we have had over the course of the past few years as shallow and as short as they were. The dangers of a weak dollar have been greatly overstated. Not to mention that when unemployment has dipped to levels were we usually go into high inflationary periods, we haven't thanks to the reserve.

And whether he wrote it or not, does not matter to me. If it had been Mccain I would be doing the same thing. and I have gone "one step further then MSN" I understand it was "someone else" in his campaign that wrote it, but in the world of accountability if it has your name on it then you take responsibility for it.

MasterCylinder

So if I wrote something nasty and put your name on it, you'd take credit for it.

Swabeky

The first newsletter was written in 1978, in 2001 Paul took moral responsibility for it. thats a large gap of time and i don't like to see 23 years go by before you address something so vital. and if he didn't know about it's publication, he could of addressed it in his 1996 campaign when his opponent used those texts against him, but he didn't until 2001.

and if you were working for me, under my name then yes I would take responsibility for it, but since I'm not in politics and your not working for me then no, I would not and I would take you to court.

Swabeky

and plains theres a reason why the 1992 vets against Mccain thing isn't being mentioned, they were making some pretty nasty claims that were discredited by POW's that were in the same camp as Mccain.

and we are making progress in Iraq, the amount of violence has been greatly reduced since the surge and the Irawi gov't is even stepping up asking for a more increased role with defending itself. should we of stayed out of iraw in the first place, yes, but leaving now will just hurt millions of innocents in iraw that we cluster fucked in the first place by taking out saddam, disbanding the army, and having no plan to stabilize the country once we got in.

and Greenspan and Reagan were in favor of the Gold, but this was during stagflation days and they aren't in favor of this standard anymore since our floating economy seemed to have done it's job when stagflation went into the boom days of the 80's and 90's.

disheartenedwamerica

Yes Ron Paul is racist...if you take something he said years ago...out of context sure. As for Iraq we had NO RIGHT and NO REASON to go in to begin with. Iraq is in a civil war. EVEN IF we stay it won't stop that. In addition the "war on terror" otherwise known as the war on freedom, is bankrupting this country. I suppose even if it costs us another $10,000,000,000,000 you would say it is ok then? You can call me heartless if you want, but I live in America, I have no business with the Iraqi people, their religion, or their civil war. As for the rest of the Paul bashing I assume you must watch fox news, since as he has CLEARLY STATED multiple times he DOES NOT want to end public schools, he wants to end the Department of Education; there is a huge difference. He wants the schools, teachers, school boards, and parents to have a say in their childrens education, instead of beaurocrats in Washington who think standardized testing is the answer to education problems.

As for the occupation and domestic spying, I can be vague. Frankly considering we are in rougly 60-70% of the countries in the world, and that the government has admitted to spying on normal citizens I can be broad. It is not like these are isolated instances or rare circumstances, they are general broad policy. In addition McCain is just as much a NeoCon as any other candidate. I never once said Romney would be a better choice. Most likely with Romney we would see large tax cuts for the rich, suprise, suprise. Still as for the other candidates we really are screwed if Dr. Paul isn't elected President. We, as Americans are in a time of crisis. So many people are scared of terrorists they are willing to hand all their freedom to uncle sam, and then duck and cover and hope that the fed protects us.

I'm sorry I can take good care of myself. I don't need them to prosecute people secretly, without habeus corpus, or without a jury. In fact I can live without the extra bullshit security, not to mention the domestic spying of AMERICAN CITIZENS. Apparently the federal government feels we are in a war against ourselves. This "war on terror" much like the "war on drugs" is merely a title given to a never-ending attempt to quash individual rights, instill a sense of fear and powerlessness, and to end peoples ability to think for themselves. Call me crazy, but I like living in freedom. I don't know you, and don't want to critize, but McCain is the same NeoCon as Hilary, and is just as stupid in his policies as Bush. Perhaps he knows how to articulate words better...but he is still a terrible choice to run this country. Remember what happened when we stayed in Vietnam, "to help the people and make sure it didn't fall to the side we didn't approve of"? Well we stayed there over 20 years, wasted billions of dollars, thousands of lives, and for what, it to collapse on itself anyway to form the communist controlled country it is today. America needs to learn to mind it's own business.

Instead of worrying about the starving Iraqi children perhaps we should worry about the starving U.S. children. We could try to quell violence in Iraq, or we could devote the same TRILLION ($1,000,000,000,000) to help our own people.

Frankly the argument to "Help Iraq" is moot. We have done more then enough.

Andrew87

Plainsman..

For the most part I think Ron Paul would make a great President, especially in regards to domestic issues, I just don't think he's up to par with his foreign policy stance.


If we were to pull out now or any time soon, they would be a hundred times worse off than they are now. U.S. soldiers are the only mediators between all of the warring factions - if we were to withdraw now, the area would ultimately become a safe haven for terrorists after the result of a long-term civil war. This is not something that we can simply 'let go.'

As I mentioned above, they would be far worse off without the current presence of the U.S.. Would they have been better off with Saddam? Who knows. What's done is done, and we must see to it that this situation does not become any worse.



You actually believe this? It's one thing to be cynical, but this is too much.

Was any candidate who is left, other than McCain, in the military? He made O-6 in the Navy, and his father and grandfather were Full Admirals. I think if there's candidate who knows military strategy, it's him. Honestly, I'm quite surprised that Paul or any of the Democrats think that they know better than him when it comes to Iraq. (Yes, I know Paul also served, but his 6 years as a flight surgeon is nothing when compared with McCain's military career)

He is also the only candidate who actually has a son serving in the military. Sounds like McCain is putting his money where his mouth is with the Iraq situation.

He wasn't my first choice for a nominee either, but when it comes to foreign policy/military strategy, I have to say I believe he's got it taken care of.

Everytime I hear someone piss and moan about the Patriot Act it always involves some paranoid, indirect implication of mass persecutions and Orwellian-style surveillance - like the agents in the black helicopters will be coming to kidnap you any time now .

I bet you cannot name me one instance in how the Patriot Act has directly affected your everyday living. The Patriot Act was not designed in order to go after and arrest marijuana users, I challenge you to try find even one case where it has been used to do so. I think you are exaggerating a bit about your allegations of it's misuse.

I had a feeling someone was going to make some smartass comment like that.

I am no Bush supporter, I think he made some horrible decisions in his second term, but to insinuate that he is comparable to Hussein or Kim Jong-Il is absolutely ridiculous.

I hate to resort to the age-old question, but I'm afraid I must:

How many terrorist attacks have occured on U.S. soil since 9/11?


But Plains, as much as we disagree on this matter - I thank you for your service.

Andrew87

MasterCylinder...

I guess a bad movie and an impending civil war leading to a terrorist state are of equal concern to you?

Somehow, I think tension in the middle east would only increase if after all this we were to just tell them 'whoops, my bad,' and back out like nothing ever happened.

Or.....would it be the ones who were already killed? If we withdraw without completing our mission, then the soldiers who have already been killed would essentially have died for no reason at all. They are the ones who would have died in vain.

*sigh*

Yeah, it's just that simple.

Plainsman1963

What does this have to do with the quote from the woman with no military experience???
Ok, first if you are trying to portray me as a conspiracy theorist, you haven't read enough of my posts.
Since it hasn't touched my life directly (though my tax dollars are being spent so that's direct enough for me), that means I shouldn't care? Neighbors, fellow citizens, as long as they don't bug me I should turn a blind eye? Nah, I don't think that way.
Again, where did I say anything about it being about cannabis users? Just to let you know, cannabis use does not define me. It is in fact a very minor part of my everyday life. Everything is not about cannabis in my life.

But hey...You threw up a challenge. One I know I can win, so...
Patriot Act: Sold as Fighting Terrorists, Act is Used in Marijuana-Smuggling Investigation

Here are some more abuses not related to cannabis, btw...
CBS News | Patriot Act Abuses Seen | July 21, 2003 11:35:06
Patriot Act abuses - SourceWatch
And if I had actually insinuated that...You might have a point.

I did mention Noriega in regards to Bush though. Noriega used his military and police force to enforce his draconian laws and rule by fear. He considered himself to be above any law other than his own and disregarded world views concerning his actions....Yep, I see a resemblance.
Prove it was because of the patriot act...This absence of terrorist attacks, and then I'll concede your point. Otherwise you have failed to prove causation and I would suggest that actually securing our borders, our airports and our ports would be a better use of our resources than the "patriot" act.

Andrew87

It is really irrelevant who originally said it, I don't know why you are so hung up on that. It is simply a philosophy which I agree with, as do many others (w/ and w/o military exp.) pertaining to our involvement in Iraq.

You act as if she is the only person in the country who feels this way, and has no reasonable basis for the statement. It was not my intention to make this about some Congresswoman's credentials, I should have never even mentioned where the quote came from.

I'm sure Senator McCain (who has 23 years of military exp.) would have no problem reiterating the exact same quote, for he seems to have similar thoughts about the Iraq war.

I'm not trying to portray you as a conspiracy theorist. Maybe you don't take the 'patriot act is being used to spy on average citizens' gibberish to the extreme that I commonly hear.

Fair enough...

Unless your neighbors are high-ranked members of organized crime, it isn't going to affect them either.

I am not suggesting that we merely turn a blind eye, because if it truly gets out of hand then I don't doubt that the American people will in fact stand up against it, but I really think all this 'patriot act paranoia' is being blown way out of proportion.

I never said it was, I only implied that (I believe) using marijuana is really the only crime that you commit.

I said marijuana users, the link you posted involved an international smuggling operation.

You don't have to be a radical Islamist living in the middle east to be considered a terrorist, most organized crime figures are considered domestic terrorists.

And I have to ask, did you even read the other two links you posted? Here is an excerpt from the first:

Complaints of verbal abuse?? That is a fucking joke. If a person really has that hard of a time dealing with so-called 'verbal abuse' they are going to have a difficult life.

So who would you rather live under, Bush or Noriega? You are starting to sound like all the obnoxious liberals who complain non-stop about Bush and refer to him as a "Nazi," yet refuse to live anywhere else.

(No, I did not call you a liberal, so there is no need to rebutt it.)

Don't be ridiculous. You and I both know that there is no way to prove that, and not because there isn't some truth to it. However, if you go back and re-read that section of my post you will see that I never claimed that the lack of terrorist attacks in recent years was solely due to the introduction of the Patriot Act. Do I think there is some level of correlation? Absolutely, but I never stated (and don't believe) that the Patriot Act alone was responsible for the absence of terrorist attacks in the past six years. Do you honestly think it is just a coincidence?

"Securing our borders" is inevitable, but securing our airports!!??? Have you been to an airport lately? Last time I checked there were people who were refusing to fly because of how much of a pain in the ass airport security has become. The last time I flew they wouldn't let me pass through security until I put my toothpaste and deodorant in separate bags. Airports are about as secure as they are gonna get, or even need to be.