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Originally Posted by Andrew87

My support in this thread was not directed toward the Patriot Act (as I said, I don't particularly favor or oppose it), but towards the U.S. military presence in Iraq.

Originally Posted by troublemaker_42

Which I disagree with as well. The middle east has been a hotbed of violence since the dawn of man. the argument of chaos if we pull out doesn't hold any weight for me. Who the hell are we to think we're going to fix problems that have existed since history began to be recorded? If we're going to "stay there til we get the job done" we'll be there for eternity. That might sound desperate, but if you look at the region, vioelnce is nothing new. We can either pull out or continue to be a part of that violence. Thinking we're somehow going to bring widespread peace to an area that has NEVER truely had it is insane. The US may be strong, but we don't perform miracles.

Originally Posted by MasterCylinder

But what about the TERRORISTS? THE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE TERRORISTS!!!!! If we cut and run, like Andrew keeps saying, then the TERRORISTS win. Lets keep fighting till everyone is dead.

Originally Posted by troublemaker_42

I don't buy the "it doesn't affect you, so its not a big deal" attitude towards the Patriot Act. Fuck that man..... thatys just shortcutting common sense, IMO. It shouldn't matter if it has a direct affect on me or not. No matter HOW you look at the PA, its obvious that the legislation was rushed and voted on before people did the proper research. It opened up the doors for all kinds of abuses of power, and has created as many problems, if not more, than it created. It hasnb't affected me, that I KNOW OF, at this point, but thats irrelavent. Its poor legislation, and I fiund it unnecessary. Think back over the past 7 years. How many hearings, how many people's testimony, how many days and how many dollars have opur leaders wasted arguing varying aspects of the Patriot Act. How many millions of dollars have been flushed down the drain debating it? How much of that money, how much of that time would have been better off addressing REAL issues? The PA has created at least as many problems as it has prevented. OUr country survived 225 years without the Patriot Act. ONE event suddenly necessitates it? I'm not downplaying how grave of a situation 9/11 was, but more Americans have died fighting the "War on Terror" than died on 9/11. We've wasted countless days and dollars arguing over a very flawed piece of legislation. Quite frankly, our current state of affairs is a mess, and the argument could be made that our "solutions" to 9/11 are as much to blame as 9/11 itself. The Patriot Act has casued as many problems as it has provided solutions. Its easy to hide behind the "we have no idea HOW many attacks the PA has prevented" train of thought if you must, but....open your eyes. I've never worn a tin foil hat in my life, and laugh at most conspiuracy theories. However, I have no doubt our current government has no problem whatsoever lying to the American public to get what it wants and to justify its actions, no matter what those actions may include. Theres a reason Bush's approval rating hoever in the lower 30's and upper 20's.....most of America has come to the same conclusion, that George and Co aren't to be trusted. I wish I could go back to my childhood, where I looked up to the President as being a hero, the leader of the greatest country on earth. Sadly, those days are long gone. I still feel the same about our country, but the illusion of the leadership always having my best interests at heart are long gone. I look at our current leadership with disgust rather than the awe I felt as a child. I wish I had the respect I once had fopr our leaders, but they have continuially chipped away at it until it simply ceased to exist anymore. The Patriot Act wasn't the catalyst of this change, but its certainbly a shining example of the types of things that have driven a wedge between our leadership and the opinions of the common citizen

Originally Posted by MasterCylinder

Has anybody heard the latest shit on McCain? It sounds like he was banging a lobbyist back in 2000. It sounds like Johnny boy was riding a wild thing. Just be a man and fess up.