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***Plainsman1963*** · 07-08-2007, 05:06 PM

Yeah, I did. Did you happen to notice the backlash on good ol' Rudy because Paul was right and Rudy was wrong?

**sterbo** · 07-08-2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plainsman1963

Yeah, I did. Did you happen to notice the backlash on good ol' Rudy because Paul was right and Rudy was wrong?

No, I missed it but would love to check it out.
Can you give us the best source material?
.
.
.

***Plainsman1963*** · 07-08-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Al Qaeda has listed its grievances against us many times. This list, compiled from their 1998 declaration of jihad, is a good summary of their demands:

* The end of U.S. aid to Israel and the ultimate elimination of that state;
* The removal of U.S. and Western forces from the Arabian peninsula;
* The removal of U.S. and Western military forces from Iraq, Afghanistan, and other Muslim lands;
* The end of U.S. support for the oppression of Muslims by Russia, China, and India;
* The end of U.S. protection for repressive, apostate Muslim regimes in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Jordan, et cetera;
* The conservation of the Muslim world’s energy resource and their sale at higher prices.

Giuliani’s indignant insistence that he doesn’t “think [he’s] ever heard that before” is a great applause line but either dishonest or indicative of a woeful lack of awareness of world politics. [Of course, as Anderson notes, these are not mutually exclusive options.]

He compounds this during a post-debate interview with Sean Hannity trotting out the “they hate us for our freedom” nonsense. There are plenty of free countries in the world and most of them are much less religious and further along the road to homosexual rights, sexual freedom, toleration of drug use, and other things that would offend radical Muslim sensibilities than we are.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/arc..._debate_video/

Quote:

As I said above, Paul's statement was anything but extraordinary; at the same time Giuliani's claim that he's never heard anyone say what Paul had just said is beyond extraordinary; it's absolutely unbelievable. It suggests that not only has Giuliani been oblivious to a great deal of the debate over why 9/11 happened and what we can do to prevent similar attacks in the future, but he's also never himself considered the possibility that U.S. policies abroad could play a role in determining how people around the world view our country, and thereby whether or not they're willing to strap bombs to themselves in order to kill Americans. In the world of Giuliani and the Republicans, no U.S. policy could ever be the cause of anger toward the U.S., and therefore no U.S. policy could ever play any role in explaining attacks on our country. This leaves them with nothing to say by way of explaining terrorism other than the standard "they're evil and they hate freedom"nonsense.

Finally, it's absolutely despicable that Giuliani continues to use the fact that he was mayor of New York during 9/11 to claim some sort of infallibility with respect to debates over the attacks, and terrorism more generally. The fact that he "lived through the attack of September 11th" gives him no privileged access to the truth about how best to combat terrorism, and no right to dismiss the views of others who happened not to be in New York on that day. And there's no reason that anyone, including the other Republican candidates, should let him get away with using 9/11 in this way. I too happen to have been in Manhattan on 9/11, but if I or any of the millions of others who were there were to attempt to use this tactic in debates about terrorism, we would be regarded as trying to exploit 9/11 for rhetorical advantage, and rightly so. This is precisely what Giuliani is doing, and yet he is allowed to get away with it.

http://brianberkey.blogspot.com/2007...xplaining.html

Quote:

Giuliani, going for an applause line with a conservative South Carolina audience that was not exactly sympathetic with his support for abortion rights and other socially liberal positions, leapt on Paul's remarks. Interrupting the flow of the debate, Giuliani declared, "That's really an extraordinary statement. That's really an extraordinary statement, as someone who lived through the attack of Sept. 11, that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq. I don't think I have ever heard that before and I have heard some pretty absurd explanations for Sept. 11. I would ask the congressman withdraw that comment and tell us that he didn't really mean that."

The mayor, who is making his response to the 9-11 attacks on New York a central feature of his presidential campaign, was joined in the assault on Paul by many of the other candidates.

But congressman did not back down, and for good reason. Unlike Giuliani, the Texan has actually read the record.

The 9-11 Commission report detailed how bin Laden had, in 1996, issued "his self-styled fatwa calling on Muslims to drive American soldiers out of Saudi Arabia" and identified that declaration and another in 1998 as part of "a long series" of statements objecting to U.S. military interventions in his native Saudi Arabia in particular and the Middle East in general. Statements from bin Laden and those associated with him prior to 9-11 consistently expressed anger with the U.S. military presence on the Arabian Peninsula, U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people and U.S. support of Israel.

The 9-11 Commission based its assessments on testimony from experts on terrorism and the Middle East. Asked about the motivations of the terrorists, FBI Special Agent James Fitzgerald told the commission: "I believe they feel a sense of outrage against the United States. They identify with the Palestinian problem, they identify with people who oppose repressive regimes, and I believe they tend to focus their anger on the United States."

Fitzgerald's was not a lonely voice in the intelligence community.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campa...ers?pid=195576

There's a few.

***Plainsman1963*** · 07-08-2007, 05:53 PM

My favorite quote that I read somewhere was "If the terrorists hated us for our "freedoms", Amsterdam would be dust by now".

NachtSorcier · 08-18-2007, 05:00 PM

Ron has my vote.

Bong King 7 · 08-25-2007, 10:17 PM

Ron Paul also has my vote. He's probably our best chance of seeing legalization anytime soon.

Higher Logic · 09-08-2007, 03:44 AM

Ron Paul is getting my vote as well. Up until a month or so ago, I wasn't going to vote. I felt disenfranchised after the 2004 election. Ron Paul brings chance, and with chance, there's a hope.

If he keeps picking up steam and making controversy with MSM, he'll be a contender:

Open Letter to Fox News

***Plainsman1963*** · 09-08-2007, 05:47 AM

Hope is right...

Quote:

Message from Ron Paul

September 7, 2007

Has this been a hectic and encouraging time! First we got almost 17% in
the Texas straw poll, an event set-up to represent the establishment,
with very restrictive voting rules. That 17% of the Republican
hierarchy would support our views, after a full day of pro-war propaganda, is
good news. Then we won the more open Maryland Republican straw poll with
28%. In both cases, as usual, hard-working, well-organized volunteers
made all the difference.

The Fox debate was a lot of fun as well. It's true that a few of the
network people are not exactly with us on foreign or domestic policy
(though one famous guy whispered to me that he is a libertarian), but the
audience-with lots of students from the University of New Hampshire-was
definitely fair and balanced, as their enthusiastic reaction showed.

My opponents called for more war, more torture, more secret prisons,
more eavesdropping, more presidential power. Some seemed to identify the
government and the people as if they were one entity. But you and I
know that once the government moves beyond its very limited constitutional
mandate, it is an opponent of the people, a rip-off operation that
takes our money and our freedom and our social peace, and gives us a mess
of statist pottage in return.

The government failed miserably on 911 to protect us, despite spending
trillions. So the answer was supposed to be the giant, socialist
Department of Homeland Security, protecting you and me from taking our
toothpaste on the airplane. I was ridiculed for saying that the airlines,
which know best how to protect their property, should have been allowed to
arm their pilots. But then, you and I really believe in the Second
Amendment. It is not just a political slogan for us.

When I discussed the blowback that came from us intervening on the
Arabian peninsula, Chris Wallace asked me if I wanted to follow the
marching orders of al-Qaeda. I responded that I wanted to follow the marching
orders of the Constitution, and not wage undeclared, aggressive wars
that cause us only trouble. This is a mystifying to some, of course, but
not to more and more Americans.

There was much talk of taxes, and a pledge not to raise rates. But as
usual, I was not allowed to discuss my lifelong pledge to abolish the
income tax. Just holding the line, when the government takes such vast
sums through an illegitimate guilty-until-proven-innocent system, is
hardly enough. We need to slash taxes and spending if we are to have a
future of prosperity for ourselves and our families.

After the debate, many young people gathered around the stage to
discuss our ideas and ask questions about them (and to have me sign their
badges). My colleagues got no such response, and after a few moments,
"security" ordered me off the stage. Can't have any such demonstration of
interest in liberty.

But the young are with us, and so are Americans of every stripe. Even
party officials. When one of my opponent said it was OK to lose
elections through supporting the Iraq war, that set party people's teeth on
edge, and rightly so. The Republican party is shrinking. We need new
people. It's either our ideas or President Hillary, and more and more people
recognize it.

But the media, and everyone else, will be looking at fundraising totals
at the end of this month. They'll judge us by how we do. And we need
help to wage what we hope will be a full-scale, 50-state campaign.
Please help me head into the next quarter fully armed to do battle for
freedom, peace and prosperity. Make your most generous contribution
https://www.ronpaul2008.com/donate/. This Revolution is on the move,
but it very much needs your support.

Sincerely,

Ron

.

Jake · 09-08-2007, 04:46 PM

Sounds good! 28% in my home state makes me proud to be a Marylander! I've seen more Ron Paul bumper stickers than literally more than any canidate so far, even Hillary, who this state will probably give their electoral votes to...

pretty liberal state....

I saw Ron Paul getting the loudest cheers on the last debate too.

DankDealer · 09-08-2007, 05:14 PM

Hahaha Plains i got that email too..just sent it out to all my friends. Ron Paul has my vote in 08

07-08-2007, 05:06 PM	#21
*Plainsman1963* Administrator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,304 Grams: 28,783.63 Groans: 29 Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts Thanks: 590 Thanked 1,253 Times in 634 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: -1.000%	Yeah, I did. Did you happen to notice the backlash on good ol' Rudy because Paul was right and Rudy was wrong? __________________ "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." - Claire Wolfe Posting Guidelines

08-18-2007, 05:00 PM	#25
NachtSorcier Jr. Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 390 Grams: 1,573.55 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Ron has my vote. __________________ People put their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution; they don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible.

09-08-2007, 03:44 AM	#27
Higher Logic Web Developer Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 6,123 Grams: 6,055.33 Groans: 3 Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post Thanks: 2 Thanked 62 Times in 36 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Ron Paul is getting my vote as well. Up until a month or so ago, I wasn't going to vote. I felt disenfranchised after the 2004 election. Ron Paul brings chance, and with chance, there's a hope. If he keeps picking up steam and making controversy with MSM, he'll be a contender: Open Letter to Fox News __________________ Crucial Web Hosting · Garden's Cure · Marijuana Recipes · Drug Testing Facts Dilution · Substitution · Urine Testing · Hair Testing · Drug Testing FAQ

09-08-2007, 04:46 PM	#29
Jake Sr. Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 6,571 Grams: 21,671.71 Groans: 38 Groaned at 5 Times in 5 Posts Thanks: 326 Thanked 890 Times in 563 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: -1.000%	Sounds good! 28% in my home state makes me proud to be a Marylander! I've seen more Ron Paul bumper stickers than literally more than any canidate so far, even Hillary, who this state will probably give their electoral votes to... pretty liberal state.... I saw Ron Paul getting the loudest cheers on the last debate too. __________________

09-08-2007, 05:14 PM	#30
DankDealer New Age Krunk Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 562 Grams: 3,161.38 Groans: 1 Groaned at 3 Times in 1 Post Thanks: 140 Thanked 120 Times in 85 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Hahaha Plains i got that email too..just sent it out to all my friends. Ron Paul has my vote in 08 __________________ "What is this.......a dooby run?" - Babs Murray Always keep your words soft and sweet incase u have to eat them

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07-08-2007, 05:53 PM	#24
*Plainsman1963* Administrator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,304 Grams: 28,783.63 Groans: 29 Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts Thanks: 590 Thanked 1,253 Times in 634 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: -1.000%	My favorite quote that I read somewhere was "If the terrorists hated us for our "freedoms", Amsterdam would be dust by now".

08-25-2007, 10:17 PM	#26
Bong King 7 New Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 9 Grams: 1,247.05 Groans: 0 Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Stock Portfolio Total Value: 0.000 Gain/Loss: 0.000%	Ron Paul also has my vote. He's probably our best chance of seeing legalization anytime soon.

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