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KWhite

A few points...

It's MY potential- society has no right to demand an iota of difference upwards or downwards- I do, and I do, but society gets my work and whatever I wish to give....

It is also MY body.

We actually are living through a drop in the use of tobacco and I read the other day that the beer breweries in Germany, of all places, are selling less.

Possible corruption of a regulated system- look around you, the corruption is here, now, with the system we have in place. Why would anyone buy too much of any drug if they could get all they needb of it? And what would they do with it once they bought it, sell it to their neighbor for a wildly inflated price because he doesn't want to walk to the store??? Which would also be legal- it is called free market commerce.

Did you ever see a puppy chasing it's own tail?

I knew a guy who seemed to think like some of you guys do, once, he became a good friend to me.

"I love weed" He says to me as he lit his second joint during an evening of conversation at his house.

"But, I think I feel bad about using it, I think I'm supposed to feel bad, you know?"
I looked him in the face and told him "No, Nils, I don't understand, logic says you realise it isn't harmful to you, you admit you have no life problems because of it, it leaves you with no hangover and you don't have any desire to smoke at work, which could get you into trouble so where's the problem?"

"Right!"

He said, smiling, and took another hit after I gave him the joint back "But, you know, I still think I should feel bad about it, and probably always will. Alcohol, that's okay, it's different, accepted, you know...?"

Sure, he'd grown up being told it was okay.

I voted yes, I don't think there is a too narrow choice, I think yes to what SpiralArchitect posted is the only way we can go forward. The policies of the past and present have drug cartels so powerful and swollen with money that they can threaten a sovereign nation, Mexico...

Given nearly unlimited funds- how long until we are seeing that stuff in Spokane?

Kelly

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"Your mind is your own, your body as well, from the soul we need not speak, tend it well, making those decisions you deem worthy, aware all responsibility is in your hands when the smoke clears" Kelly L. White

"It is a principle of natural justice that when bad men make bad laws, or when unprincipled authorities compromise good ones, citizens are justified in protecting themselves from the very authority that compromised law and order." Gandhi

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Dark

*ahem*
Hello

I think it's time I spoke my stance. I discussed it enough in the chat that night to deflect me from doing it that day.

Yes, I think all drugs should be legal. Legal and regulated.
In this day and age, you have to weigh the negatives. There are negatives with both legalization, and keeping it illegal. The question is, which one would prove to be worse?

It seems the people that want to keep them illegal, are the ones with the biggest concern of addiction. They feel that the legalization of all drugs would make these more readily available for addicts, and the normal person meaning addiction would rise. I don't believe so...

You look at your ordinary junkie. He KNOWS where to get his stuff. It's not that he can't find any, that's not why he's fiendin', he's fiendin' because he spent all his money on it already........Sad really,
My point is, fiends know where to get their fix, legal or not. Legal drugs just makes it LEGALLY obtainable, CONTROLLED, and REGULATED. I'll get to that in a minute.

So what good does keeping the drugs illegal do? This is what keeping drugs illegal does to our society...
First off, it creates a whole lot more crime than it protects. If you think everyone would just run amok and wreak havoc when drugs are legal, I'm sorry but you're sadly mistaken.
Illegalization causes drug crime, which can't even be treated. You tell the policeman the man just stole $200+ from you for weed and see if he cares...Stabbed in a drug deal? Try to tell the cops that and see if you get off scotch free.
Illegalization causes gangs and territory wars. You think what most gangs are fighting for and it's position for selling drugs. Illegal drugs supplies LOADS of money to the gangs in this country. This also causes gangs to go to protection means such as guns and other weapons because they need to protect themselves, and the police are certainly not going to do that....
Illegalization causes impurity in almost ALL substances. Not to get too offtopic, but you try to find pure C, or H and see if you have any luck. You'd be lucky to get 90+ pure...all because of the drug war. Money money money

If drugs were legal, all drugs would be PURE. No additives, you know exactly what you're taking everytime. You know how much alcohol is in that fifth because the same amount is there everytime. You know how many shots it takes to get drunk. You would know how many sniffs or puffs or pops you would have to take to get to where you want. This also leads to less overdoses, because people know what they're dealing with and how strong it is.
If they were legal, we eliminate almost all gang activity. I mean really think about it. Almost all of their money comes from drugs. Make the drugs legal, pure, and accessible and it takes away their whole market.
We get the law on OUR side. No more worrying about what the police want when they come knocking on your door. I think almost every pothead hates that instant paranoia of being confronted by a cop after recently smoking. Whats the biggest reason most people distrust police? Drugs, plain and simple.
No more dealing with shady people, no more getting ripped off, no more paranoia......

Now, it doesn't mean all drugs would be allowed at the gas station or corner store...Regulated means just that. Special places where limits and doses are controlled and all regulated. Taxed of course. It's a very simple solution. The drugs WILL NOT be stopped. For every dealer taken off the street another one will take his place. There's money to be made in this field and that means it will stay alive until this law is ended.

And as for addiction....Education is KEY. Kids hear the truth of all substances and when they come of age, THEY choose. It's their body, if they can have cigarettes and alcohol they can have pot or coke. Marijuana is more easily accessible to kids than alcohol for the simple fact that dealers don't care how old you are...they are just looking at money. A regulated business would eliminate the black market, thus making it much harder for kids to obtain said drugs.

As I said, its a simple weighing of the negatives.
Negatives of legalization? Chance of higher addiction rates. ..........................
Negatives of illegalization? Crime, gangs, clogged prisons, billions wasted on a futile war, impurity, and building a wall between the people of this country and the men hired to protect us....

Add that with the fact that legalization would give this country thousands of new jobs, and -illions in tax money, the choice couldn't be more crystal.....

Almost no one thinks alcohol should be illegal, yet I think it's fair to say it's one of, if not the worst drug out there. Question yourself, if you grew up in a society where cocaine and marijuana were the alcohol and cigarettes of today, would you feel different about the substances? If prohibition of alcohol was a lesson in anything, it's that any drug can turn bad if made illegal. It created crime, it created gangs, it created a wall between protectors and protected. Nothing is different about the drugs of today.

Legal, controlled, and regulated, and watch the country take a massive positive turn

EDIT: And for the record, for anyone causing harm or possible harm to ANYONE else under the influence of drugs, there are laws in these circumstances.

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SpiralArchitect

Great post Dark! I was hoping you'd chime in

One thing

This I am not so sure about.

I mean, lets think about it for a second, take a step back....


Lets use a nonexistent drug to avoid breaking any rules, or having to walk in circles to do it..

This drug, lets call it antelope (first word popped into my head). Antelope is extremely addictive and a powerful drug, it's a synthesized chemical that can be inhaled, insufflated and injected. Overdoses are common.. It's been around for years, and the general perception is that it's something you shouldn't meddle with.

If this antelope remains illegal it continues to roam our streets, hehe, no matter how hard you try to stop it. If you make it legal you can at least control its sales and keep the crime out of the lucrative black market drug trade.

But the stigma will always stay there. People are going to think antelope users are degeneratesfor meddling with their lives regardless of the legality. They are entitled to think as they please but these people know antelope users are taxed for their consumption at least! They cannot hold their beliefs above my rights as a human being.

"I can do antelope if I please! I appreciate your concern, but it is ultimately my choice. You have no control over me."

Antelope dealers were gone with the wind because they couldn't compete with drug dispensaries. Antelope related violent crimes, including murder, have significantly dropped. Tight security and severe punishments deter thieves. People who don't approve of recreational drug use, and thats totally their choice, can accept and understand the government is actually doing something about it, rather than failing at the impossible; stopping antelope use through prohibition.

It's all so simple. Legalize and regulate the antelope!
I'm gonna quote StonedImmaculate21here, it nicely wraps up what I've had to say on Page 1. Well put, bud;

Shit, I wouldn't even say it takes 9 or 10 generations. Give it two or three... Look a few generations back and you'll see the perception of drug use is a viscous social norm, it may be resistance to flow/change but it does indeed change.

Like gears in a clock, its really only a matter of time...

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Dark

I agree with you Spiral, I was just trying to show the side of the argument that they have . I don't agree higher addiction would happen, but it seems the other side of the argument does believe that

SpiralArchitect

Ah, yes yes... I just now realized that with the 26 periods you put at the end of that statement. Yeah, I counted em, so what?

 

KWhite

interesting discussion....

The effects of propaganda over three or four generations-

Why is there any stigma?

Morals?

Who set them, what if they are not MY morals...

Oh, da pains in my HAID, MA!!!

RookieSmoker

I still think addiction would be more of a problem if legalization occured, but not necessarily the rate of addiction. (Say 100 people do "Antelope" now while it's illegal and say 30 get addicted. After it's legalized, say 300 people do Antelope, I don't think 30% would be addicted, I'm guessing about 1/2 of that, but since the number of users rised, so did the amount addicted. I think a huge problem though would be that with the increased number of addicted, even if the percentage is lower, you'd still need more rehab centers then there currently are. I'm not sure how much they cost to open and run, but it would definitely cost less then we're spending now.
A good step in some of the off topic stronger (hard) drugs would be lessening their potency so that the effects wouldn't be too strong, or at least have a strong and weak type of said drug for new users (basically like a schwag to kb comparison).

JohnBoySmoker

Are we raising hamsters or humans?
"Oh lets just let the defective ones die out." Is that what you're saying?
Is that what you really mean?

Interesting post. This parallels the subject of sexual self gratification except it covers many more generations than the stigma of drug usage.
I'm sure there are a number of posters here who would be ashamed to tell their mothers that they touch themselves but would be okay with telling them they smoke pot.

SpiralArchitect

Pretty much if you want to put it bluntly. Sometimes lessons are learned the hardest way, but thats when the often make the biggest impact.

Right now the 'defective ones' are just being tossed in prison where we pay for the expensive cement houses they live in. The tab keeps going up, and up, and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up... but drug use continues and the criminal, sometimes violent element in the drug trade remains.

This isn't a solution, it's one of those 'really hard lessons'. America will come around. I'm sure you'll say "Oh, no they wont!" and say whatever it is you feel like saying, but it's the truth. Perceptions change, laws change, the world changes. Drugs will not, cannot, remain illegal forever. It may be a long time until this War on Freedoms ends, but it's not a 'never-ending story'

Trocisp

Again with the 'remain illegal' thing. Legality isn't a black-and-white line, and quite frankly, a society where any drug was legal probably wouldn't work.

If highly addictive substances (things that form genuine, chemical dependences) are sold OTC there is an extremely high potential for people who wouldn't otherwise use them to try them and get addicted.

Certain drugs will remain illegal, there's no question that Crystal Meth isn't going to be sold in stores. The only question is, which drugs will remain illegal (no medicinal benefits with a high potential for abuse) and why? Then, of course, you have the issue of treatment and punishment.

Just because something isn't legal doesn't mean there has to be punitive measures in place against it. A simple fine would suffice. "Twenty Dollars per gram of substance." The fine you get is directly proportional to the amount you have, so dealers are obviously punished more than users of (then) illicit substances, and dealers (if dealer-status could be 'conclusively proven') could still face jail time, especially if dealing to minors.

And, rather than Punishment, fines can be waived if you successfully complete a drug rehabilitation (or 'living with meth addiction') type class.

Those that aren't kept illegal (those deemed to have either medicinal benefits or a low potential for abuse) could be reclassified either as Medicinal (those with medical benefits, but potential for abuse - like Opiates) and those with no/limited potential for abuse and no medical benefits (Alcohol, Tobacco, Salvia, all classified as Limited/No abuse potential and no medical benefits).


I'm definitely not a fan of outright legalization - but I'm not a fan of the drug war, either. It really comes down to pragmatism and whether or not you want the punishment for committing a crime to be so many orders of magnitude worse than the crime itself.