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Niteshift

Such a thing is inhumane, especially since there's no incriminating evidence of illegal activity (failing a drug test isn't illegal; against military regulations, since it can impair their ability to fight, yes, and that's why they should be discharged, or at least brought back, now, not after the fighting's over).

First, it's not "inhumane". They signed a CONTRACT. They VOLUNTEERED to join the military. Then they took an OATH to, among other things, obey the regulations and obey lawful orders given to them. It is the Army's perogative to decide if and when they discharge them. Otherwise, they will serve out as much of the CONTRACT that the VOLUNTARILY signed as the Army sees fit.

Second, failing the drug test can be ILLEGAL. Army regulations state that you WILL NOT USE pot. PERIOD.

Article 112a of the UCMJ:

“(a) Any person subject to this chapter who wrongfully uses, possesses, manufactures, distributes, imports into the customs territory of the United States, exports from the United States, or introduces into an installation, vessel, vehicle, or aircraft used by or under the control of the armed forces a substance described in subsection (b) shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(b) The substances referred to in subsection (a) are the following:

(1) opium, heroin, cocaine, amphetamine, lysergic acid diethylamide, methamphetamine, phencyclidine, barbituric acid, and marijuana, and any compound or derivative of any such substance."

Notice the very FIRST thing is USES.

What does the Army have to show? (2) Wrongful use of controlled substance.

(a) That the accused used a controlled substance; and

(b) That the use by the accused was wrongful.


That's all. Nothing else. The drug test, which is re-tested a number of times, including by a gas chromatograph is evidence of that.

Here is how they define "use": (10) Use. “Use” means to inject, ingest, inhale, or otherwise introduce into the human body, any con-trolled substance. Knowledge of the presence of the controlled substance is a required component of use. Knowledge of the presence of the controlled sub-stance may be inferred from the presence of the controlled substance in the accused’s body or from other circumstantial evidence. This permissive inference may be legally sufficient to satisfy the government’s burden of proof as to knowledge.


So they are getting a dishonorable discharge? The max is:

(1) Wrongful use, possession, manufacture, or introduction of controlled substance.

(a) Amphetamine, cocaine, heroin, lysergic acid diethylamide, marijuana (except possession of less than 30 grams or use of marijuana), methamphetamine, opium, phencyclidine, secobarbital, and Schedule I, II, III controlled substances. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement 5 years.

(b) Marijuana (possession of less than 30 grams or use), phenobarbital, and Schedule IV and V controlled substances. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.


Now how much room do they TRULY have to b*tch?

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Niteshift

BTW, as for the poll itself, I think it's not worded to give proper options.

I PERSONALLY don't think a soldier should be given a dishonorable for failing a drug test for mj the first time. I'd rather see them send them to counseling, which they can do. I don;t think a dishonorable should be the first club out of the bag.

However, I fully support their right to give the dishonorable if that is their choice. If I were his commander, I wouldn't. But I can't fault his commander for choosing to.

Also, I don't think "after combat" should have a damn thing to do with it. Combat is your job in the Army. Strip away all the specialties and everything else, and it all comes back to combat. Some soldiers end up seeing combat, some don't. But seeing combat shouldn't give you a free pass to violate the UCMJ.

poTCat

And that includes them being able to willfully put your, and other soldiers, lives at risk when you should be discharged, or at least court-marshalled, and only discharge them after the fighting and life risk is over? I'm not saying that drug use in the military is or isn't bad, but the US government is using these people that by all intents and purposes are no longer part of the military.

And if failing a drug test is proof of drug use, then why isn't a normal person failing a drug test grounds for arrest and conviction? After all, if you used drugs, you had to have possessed them which is a felony in most areas.

I fully agree. Whether or not these soldiers have seen or will see combat, they're being given a free ride, unbeknownst to themselves, until they get home and everything blows up. Why the wait? What purpose does sitting on it and pretending nothing's wrong until they come home serve? To put their lives in danger? To continue to use them, even though they're supposed to be discharged?

Oh well. Yet another reason why the army has problems recruiting. And they sit there and scratch their heads in confusion as to why they have problems finding volunteers..

Niteshift

And that includes them being able to willfully put your, and other soldiers, lives at risk when you should be discharged, or at least court-marshalled, and only discharge them after the fighting and life risk is over?

Yes.

I'm not saying that drug use in the military is or isn't bad, but the US government is using these people that by all intents and purposes are no longer part of the military.

They are part of the military until the Army says they are no longer part of the military.

For example, back in 1991, soldiers whose enlistment (contract) was up were not allowed to leave active duty because we were at war with Iraq. Even when they were nowwhere near Iraq. They had to stay longer. That is the military's perogotive.


And if failing a drug test is proof of drug use, then why isn't a normal person failing a drug test grounds for arrest and conviction? After all, if you used drugs, you had to have possessed them which is a felony in most areas.

First, read what I posted from Article 112a. It says USE, not possession.

Second, "normal people" CAN be, it's just not practical. I have seen people suggessfully prosecuted for possession of an off-topic substance when they were dealing on a corner and swallowed the drug when they say police. Their stomach was pumped and the contents tested for the presence of that off-topic substance.

Third, these guys are not being CRIMINALLY CHARGED so far. There is no court martial. They are simply being dishonorably discharged.

Why the wait? What purpose does sitting on it and pretending nothing's wrong until they come home serve? To put their lives in danger? To continue to use them, even though they're supposed to be discharged?

Why shouldn't the Army use them? They spent thousands of dollars training and equipping them. Why not get some use out of them?

Yet another reason why the army has problems recruiting. And they sit there and scratch their heads in confusion as to why they have problems finding volunteers..

First, if you smoke pot and will continue to smoke pot, the Army doesn't want you in the first place. They make that clear during the enlistment process. That's why they drug test you BEFORE you go to basic training.

Second, the Army isn't having recruiting problems. Their recruiting cycles go up and down with the economy, politics and world situations on a very predictable cycle.

DonkeyPunch

Quick story about a friend of mine, joined the service after 9-11 ended up in the 87th Airborne. After training, he had a few days leave before shipping out to Afghanistan, and along with the rest of his group (platoon? not sure the designation for the grouping of about 20-25 people...) had a bunch of drinks and joints while on leave. They all reported back, took the drug test, and shipped immediately. The results came back AFTER they were already in country, and about 18 of em failed. No repercussions in this case, but it was known that if any of them f'ed up badly over there, there would be no leniency (because of the test failures). What was more of a concern was whether any of the troops were chewing the poppy leaves, something that can cause a quick addiction and possibly lead to heroin usage when they get back home.

Anyway, they got back a few days before X-mas, and had a few more days leave before they shipped to Iraq. Same scenario. Same test. Same results, same consequences. I'm not sure if it had anything to do with the fact that these guys (paratroopers) typically get VERY rough duty (searching caves, trading fire almost every other day in Afghanistan), and get shipped immediately and without much warning, so by the time the tests come through, these guys are usually already in place at their final destination. For any discipline to happen here, the soldier(s) would have to be sent out to another base out of the combat area, which could jeopardize the rest of the troops' actions on the battlefield.

BTW, to answer the poll, I believe that they should not be dishonorably discharged for a test failure, but also realize that this is not the "real world", so to speak, it is the U.S. Armed Forces, which has very few similarities with the world we all live in. I am gonna just ditto what Niteshift said in post 12, as it pretty much mirrors how I feel on this one.

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poTCat

Something like this is a bit different than failing a urine test. AFAIK, urine tests can only detect THC, and not the cannabinoids, from pot, and that the THC by itself is not proof of pot use.

From what I understand, anyway.

Niteshift

AFAIK, urine tests can only detect THC, and not the cannabinoids, from pot, and that the THC by itself is not proof of pot use.

THC is what is actually illegal. According to the UCMJ, they use the list from US Code Title 21, Chapter 13, Subchapter 1, part B, sec. 812:

Schedule 1, section C (17): Tetrahydrocannabinols

That is THC, isn't it?



Since no member of the military would be allowed to use Marinol under a prescription, they couldn't ingest THC legally.

Aso, as I've stated at least twice (and now a third time), NO ACTION is taken until the sample is tested by a gas chromatograph. We're not talking about dipping a little stick in the sample and discharging a soldier because it turned a certain color. The GC will measure the actual concentration etc and can differentiate between actual ingestion and second hand inhalation.

TurbulentHigh

Agreed, when you sign up with the military you basically admit you have no rights anymore and that the government owns you until your time is up. It is not as if someone forced them to smoke, so really they put themselvs in a bad position. I don't think servicemen should have the ability to use any form of drug cigarettes to heroin. On the grounds that any use of drugs could compromise their ability to do their duty. Yes even marijuana because smoke inhilation does cause respritory issues. If something goes wrong, tax payers have to pay for it. If they don't like it, then don't sign up with the military.

- TurbulentHigh

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TurbulentHigh

Actually you and niteshift are both incorrect to a degree. The tests do not test for THC they test for the broken down bi-products of THC. However, evidence of these bi-products is enough evidence to claim that the individual has smoked marijuana. And yes THC is illegal, and if THC is not proof of marijuana use then what is?

- TurbulentHigh

Logos

I didn't stay in the Army for the reason that the rules are even more harsh than the rules in civilian life, and I can't handle half the BS rules society places upon people. Responsible or not, we all get punnished equally, and before doing anything wrong most of the time.

I think ones conduct should outweigh ones indescretions. I can see it now, they all get awarded something for going over in support of this highly flawed war in the way of decoration, and come back to a dishonerable discharge.

I suppose there is no rule in life that says everything should make sense eh?

I do think that the military misrtepresents itself through omission during the recruiting process though. I take exception to the statement that everyone who joins knows what they are signing up for.

I remember the reinlistment recruiter who had a nice juicy bonus to offer me to join a guard unit while I was outprocessing. I kept saying, no thanks, and he got visibly flustered. I had had enough with the Army making all my decisions for me.

I do still get X-Mas cards from the Colonel I drove around Korea for a year though. He finally retired and took on his second career as a civilian working for the military.

One thing the military has today that no other profession has is job security as long as you don't smoke pot... War is the booming industry of the decade.

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