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Conine

It's so tough to say with the military. They operate so differently than civilians.

[edit military operations and alcohol comparisons]

You can go in to work sober as a judge every day, go on leave for a week, smoke some pot for a few days, come back to work sober again, get tested, and get kicked. That's the reality and that's what I have a problem with. You can't convince me that it's right if you're testing for 30 days of usage.

I saw it happen to good friends of mine who would smoke at parties on the weekend. Not pretty.

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Niteshift

"In time of peace, though, I don't think drug tests should be utilized. If a member is off-duty, and smokes, I don't think he/she should be punished (considering there is a test given and he/she pops positive); of course, if a person reports for duty blitzed, or is caught smoking while on duty, he/she should be repromanded, of course."

The nature of military duty is that you never know when you will be called to duty. One of the units I served in was a RDF unit........ anywhere in the world in 24-48 hours. That doesn't leave a lot of time. Alcohol consumption already places a strain on movements of that type.

Then you factor in that one substance is legal at the moment and one substance is not.

"If, by the grace of God, MJ WERE legalized, do you think a military member should have the right to smoke while off-duty, considering we are not at war?!"

"A little harsh, maybe, but it just shows how serious the military is about this stuff."

And I think it also demonstrates that they aren't biased. Orders are orders.

"You can't convince me that it's right if you're testing for 30 days of usage.

I saw it happen to good friends of mine who would smoke at parties on the weekend. Not pretty."

Again, you're thinking civilian like thoughts............. they do not have the same rights you do.

They know the orders given to them. They know the penalty for violating them. They make their choices.

It may not be pretty, but the military takes a dim view on people not following orders. If you are insubordinant and disobey this order.........what order will you choose to defy next? That is their thought process.



It should be treated like the other intoxicant.

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Herb Ninja

I know somebody who was in the army for several years and he would use a very strong offtopic hallucinogen because it can only be tested through a spinal tap, which is not manditory. Its possible that by making marijuana prohibited people turn to other nonpisstestable drugs that are much much worse. Marijuana peaks at about 30-45 minutes. This drug peaks at several hours, and can last 12. I think that military or not, if we are allowing alcohol use we should allow cannabis consumption as well.

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SacredNaCl

Do you want a guy that just used certain drugs recently to be piloting a $70 million aircraft full of munitions over your house? Or that guy handling nuclear warheads? ---


Actually, testing of pilots wouldn't do much good... Aside from the fact that the military gives them amphetamines and barbituates ....

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0809/p01s04-usmi.html

...Drug testing results aren't instantly availalbe, and results would only appear *after* the pilot flew his mission. He could be plastered on any number of things, or take them after the test ...and it's not going to prevent it.

The fly-boys aren't the only ones getting these either.

As far as detecting LSD -- there is a test that will pick that up other than a spinal tap. It's called RIA, and it's a standard test in government drug testing. My present understanding (and I could be wrong) is that it's only detectable for a very brief period of time with this test.

wakDbuds

there are other hallucinogens that arent testable... but this is not the place to discuss it i think anytime you are allowed to get drunk you should be able to toke. there is of course the whole legal status thing, personally i dont think they should be so harsh on pot users.

i believe giving drugs to the army has a very long history... you might say 'but this is america in the year 2002!', however where do you draw the line, considering many drugs are available legally for the right reasons? wounded soldiers need morphine (or whatever ), snipers might take diazepam or some sort of relaxant... your stepping into a complex area when you criticize the army for using drugs. they demand peak human performance, and drugs are a cheap and easy way to ensure they get it.

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Bongzilla

Hmmm... I am leaning towards yes to the drug tests. They have quite a bit of responsibility on their hands, do you want them to be on *anything* when they are holding a rifle in a village?

Obviously I'm not just talking about MJ, but the fact is everyone reacts differently. I know someone who literally flips out when he smokes a cigarette after a joint and a few who pass out an hour later.

Wouldn't want someone passing out in the newest billion dollar bomber

Better to be safe than sorry!

Niteshift

"Actually, testing of pilots wouldn't do much good... Aside from the fact that the military gives them amphetamines and barbituates ...."

You're making it sound commonplace and it's not.

Further, the use of a very mild stimulant is being represented as some super potent amphetamine. Giving a stimulant to a guy that has to be in a G-suit is counterproductive. Think about it.

Further, gas chromatograhy will be able to determine concentration differences in drugs, hence whether the drug detected was prescribed or not.

Lastly, not testing because some are given a certain type of drug is sticking your head in the sand. The drugs are dispensed with medical supervision. They are properly manufactured and quality controlled. If you go to the hospital and have surgery, you will quite possibly be prescribed one drug or another that will show up on a urine test, but when you have a PRESCRIPTION, it doesn't count.


"snipers might take diazepam or some sort of relaxant..."

Oh hell no............you're thinking only about the act of pulling the trigger. You're totally forgetting what it takes to get to that point.

HappyMan

or getting away

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Conine

Not really, I was thinking military like thoughts. The good friends of mine were in the military.

Shrug... this applies to nearly everyone on this board. Everyone here knows there are consequences and makes their choices. Doesn't make it right for anyone here, either.

Military folks have diminished rights, they have orders, they abide by the UCMJ, they aren't civilians.... these are facts. It doesn't mean the policy is above scrutiny in this forum, although it's meaningless since the military follows a tighter set of rules that is unlikely to move in the opposite direction.

No more than I'd want any civilian to be on anything in public...

I really hate these wartime examples. I've never heard of any random testing done in such a situation anyway, unless there was some kind of suspicion. Things are so much different when you're overseas in some conflict arena. You're living every moment with these people in these situations. You can't hide whatever you're doing for very long. If you're showing up for duty messed up, you definitely won't last.

Honestly, I've got to meet the pilot or crew member who is assigned to fly [in] stealth bombers and is even considering screwing with that opportunity, much less showing up for duty in anything but perfect condition.

Bottom line... all these concerns and worries about some baked out gunner or pilot... I'd be a hell of a lot more worried about a guy showing up drunk and doing this stuff, because it's a hell of a lot more likely.

Niteshift

"Not really, I was thinking military like thoughts. The good friends of mine were in the military."

It's tough to think in military terms if you've never been essentially "owned" 24/7. Owned to the point where someone can order you to perform a task that is likely to get you killed. Owned to the point where, if they choose to, you can be confined to your room during ALL of your non-working hours. You are a military member 24/7/365. If you are stationed in Kansas and get into trouble in NY while on leave, you can be punished by the authorities in NY, then the military gets a shot at you because you violated orders.


"Shrug... this applies to nearly everyone on this board. Everyone here knows there are consequences and makes their choices. Doesn't make it right for anyone here, either."

The major difference is that simply by being in the US, you are subject to the laws. You didn't really have a choice in that.

But when you join the military, you do it VOLUNTARILY. You sign a contract and swear an oath that says you'll follow the orders. Period. You ASKED to be there.

That is a very significant difference.